(seemingly) Basic Frequency Question

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losthighway
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(seemingly) Basic Frequency Question

Post by losthighway » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:54 am

I'm going to get my humble on here, this is something that should already be clear to me based on experience, but the theoretical and practical haven't come together in my brain.

I often try to compare musical notes to frequencies to keep the musical and technical jiving, but I get hung up. 'A 440' is such an obvious reference point but I realize my musical life and eq'ing life don't match up. An A 440 on a guitar is the second to highest A you can play on a typical 6 string, fretting the high E string at the 5th fret. It's bright, chimey, full of treble. An oscillator playing 440hz produces what you might casually, or subjectively call a 'high note', not a crazy high-pitched whistle but near the middle of a piano which sounds relatively 'high'.

When I'm eq'ing the neighborhood of 440 hz I would tend to think of it as close to what some folks call the 'chesty' sounding mids. Not quite the boom of 200hz being boosted on a metal dudes palm muted chugging amp, but not quite deep into the 'nasal' range yet either, let alone the bright or piercing territory.

I guess what I'm getting at is it's weird to me that a frequency that is musically bright and high, is closer to robust or full sounding mids in the world of eq. I understand some of it is the timbre of the guitar, and some is the presence of overtones/subharmonics, but it's still weird. Even weirder is to realize the fundamental frequency of an open E string on a standard tuned guitar falls into the low range that many, including myself have high-passed with eq. Is part of all of this my electric guitar player brain not instinctualizing the incredibly wide frequency scope of my instrument?

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Re: (seemingly) Basic Frequency Question

Post by Magnetic Services » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:18 am

Maybe it's an overtone of something lower in your mix?

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Re: (seemingly) Basic Frequency Question

Post by Nick Sevilla » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:54 pm

Always remember, strings being struck always have:

The Fundemantal, or main note.

Secondary and further subnotes, and harmonics. Maybe that is what you hear as "bright" in your music?

For A = 440Hz : Sub 220 Hz, Sub2 110 Hz, etc. ; 880 Hz, 1,760 Hz, 3520 Hz, 7,040 Hz, and, very rarely in a guitar, 14,080 Hz.

Depending on how your guitar resonates, the kind of string and its age, how you play the string, etc, the blend of all those frequencies may be brighter than other players, and darker than other players.

And now, a Very Useful chart:

http://www.liutaiomottola.com/formulae/freqtab.htm
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Re: (seemingly) Basic Frequency Question

Post by losthighway » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:01 pm

Nick Sevilla wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:54 pm

And now, a Very Useful chart:

http://www.liutaiomottola.com/formulae/freqtab.htm
Yeah, love that chart, I had another version in poster form up in my control room at one point.

But it kind of trips me out. An open A on a guitar is 110hz. That sounds like mid to me when I play a guitar, but bass when I'm eq'ing a track. I think you're right though, a lot is the overtones I hear when I play guitar being really present.

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Re: (seemingly) Basic Frequency Question

Post by Nick Sevilla » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:09 pm

losthighway wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:01 pm
Yeah, love that chart, I had another version in poster form up in my control room at one point.

But it kind of trips me out. An open A on a guitar is 110hz. That sounds like mid to me when I play a guitar, but bass when I'm eq'ing a track. I think you're right though, a lot is the overtones I hear when I play guitar being really present.
I think maybe you can start changing the way you label "low / mid / high" in your head.

110 Hz is definitely low end.

I tend to go with how the Neve 1081 EQ is set up:

LOW = zero to 330 Hz.
Low Mid = 330 Hz to 1,200 Hz
Mid = 12,00 Hz to 8,200 Hz.
HI = 8,200 Hz an above.

That tends to keep me from "guitar" range thinking.
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Re: (seemingly) Basic Frequency Question

Post by emrr » Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:22 am

I believe it's the harmonics standing out more strongly than the fundamental.

I went down the road of making my own low rent piano samples once, and if I look at the lowest notes on an analyzer the harmonics that stand out most strongly are not the fundamental, they are in fact entirely misleading about the note in question. Yet they imply the correct note to the brain, in context. That's a tangent from the thing you are experiencing, but a bit related; just the thought that some instruments get much stranger.
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Re: (seemingly) Basic Frequency Question

Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:33 am

emrr wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:22 am
I believe it's the harmonics standing out more strongly than the fundamental.
that's exactly what it is. low E on a bass is ~41hz, but we hear a lot more 82 than 41. spectrum meters aren't good for much except being pretty, but if you look at any good rock mix, the biggest peak of energy is gonna be around 80, it's never down at 40.

the lowest notes on a piano are too low to hear the fundamental clearly. piano tuners go by the harmonics for those lowest notes.

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Re: (seemingly) Basic Frequency Question

Post by losthighway » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:01 am

MoreSpaceEcho wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:33 am
emrr wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:22 am
I believe it's the harmonics standing out more strongly than the fundamental.
that's exactly what it is. low E on a bass is ~41hz, but we hear a lot more 82 than 41. spectrum meters aren't good for much except being pretty, but if you look at any good rock mix, the biggest peak of energy is gonna be around 80, it's never down at 40.

the lowest notes on a piano are too low to hear the fundamental clearly. piano tuners go by the harmonics for those lowest notes.
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Re: (seemingly) Basic Frequency Question

Post by drumsound » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:26 pm

Don't get hung up on the numbers or what they mean. All of these things are just guides to an end. Its pretty rare we are dealing with pure sine waves. There is A LOT going on in every note, and then it gets added to to other sounds, creating buildups, masking, and sometimes frequency holes.

And to continue my piling on to other people's already great posts...

Happy Birthday Scott!

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Re: (seemingly) Basic Frequency Question

Post by Gregg Juke » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:31 pm

What those guys said and...

Happy Birthday Scott!

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Re: (seemingly) Basic Frequency Question

Post by vvv » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:17 pm

MoreSpaceEcho wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:33 am
spectrum meters aren't good for much except being pretty, ...
Really?

I use an FFT display all the time to locate artifacts (say, clicks, pops and exaggerated "s" sounds) all the time, particularly on lead vocal vocal tracks and at overdub points; also good for finding chair squeaks.
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Re: (seemingly) Basic Frequency Question

Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:32 pm

to me, an FFT display is a different thing from a spectrum meter.

whatever works!

thanks for the birthday wishes y'all. i'm old!

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Re: (seemingly) Basic Frequency Question

Post by vvv » Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:27 pm

Ah, I see, yeah, I confuzzed the two.

So - I do use the spectrum meter but far less often, usually just as a quick way to find the the point to put a pass filter, or to ID the frequency where a drum has the most power, and occasionally to find harmonics.

But the FFT is usually my go-to even for that stuff.

I probably use the FFT on every mix at some point, particularly as a quick way to check the efficacy of gates, as well as what I mentioned above.

I might use the spectrum meter on 1 outta 20 mixes, if that.

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