Pro Tools -9173 errors

[kslight]

I’ve always gotten these, to some greater or lesser extent depending on the session/software versions/computer of the day, and from searching around time and again it seems more of a “feature” for all than an isolated bug just for me. I’ve been using Pro Tools for about 15 years and this issue never seems to go away completely, though sometimes it is less frustrating than other times. There are various tips all over the avid forums and I’ve never found a definitive solution.

I do a mix of contemporary rock “song” work (ie: not reliant on virtual instruments) and film work (using the video engine, but not heavy on virtual instruments). Various sample rates. Problems are hit and miss on all types of work I do.


I am totally native, now on the latest Pro Tools, MAC OS High Sierra, 12 core 3.33ghz 2010 Mac Pro w 48gb RAM, SSDs, stock video card, etc... I’ve tried disable/enable turbo boost and hyperthreading and cores... (usually runs worse with these disabled), don’t have anything running in the background...I do not build what I think of as extreme sessions, not tons of automation, crazy amounts of or inefficient use of plugins, etc... and watching the system usage meter suggests I should have plenty of available system headroom. What looks to be happening is some more modern plugins with certain graphical attributes are more likely to cause a “random” spike and make 9173s. If I close the plugin (but leave it active) window then generally it runs better. Offenders are especially those that do some sort of spectral visualization, like modern dynamics and EQs. Known to be sometimes difficult off the top of my head are Waves H-EQ, Isotope Ozone 8, Unfiltered Audio Spec OPs/Triad (depending on presets).

Of course i can render tracks/etc in order to workaround issues. But I have two questions: 1. Do other DAWs have these kind of issues if you build the same kind of session with the same plugins? 2. Has anyone upgraded the video card in their cheese grater Mac Pro/do you have these issues?

[Nick Sevilla]

http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/en_U ... power-9173

This is due to a CPU spiking and messing up PTs operation.

Check:

That you leave ONE CPU for the operating system. Change how many CPUs you allow PT to use in your preferences.

Trash preferences and reboot the whole computer after changing, to ensure it did change.

Do you use ONYX, to force the maintenance tasks on your mac? I do, it does help.

Do you defragment only your audio drives? Check them.... sometimes a very fragmented audio file can cause this, as it messes up
the plug in audio buffer thus causing this error to come up. I defragment my audio only drives as needed. iDefrag rules for this.

Lastly, is your video card up to the task?

"If I close the plugin (but leave it active) window then generally it runs better. Offenders are especially those that do some sort of spectral visualization, like modern dynamics and EQs. Known to be sometimes difficult off the top of my head are Waves H-EQ, Isotope Ozone 8, Unfiltered Audio Spec OPs/Triad (depending on presets). "

I had these issues on my 2008 Mac Pro tower, until I upgraded the video card. Have not had that issue since. The one I have now has 1GB video RAM on the card itself.

[kslight]

Modern pro tools does not allow you to set how many cores it can use?

I’ve not used Onyx.

I haven’t trashed preferences or defragged in a little bit, but I use different drives for different projects (ie: often a new ssd for an entire film) so I don’t think they are excessively fragmented.

My video card is the factory 1gb card. I have considered it for upgrade but I was curious if this would affect Pro Tools.

[digitaldrummer]

I haven’t trashed preferences or defragged in a little bit, but I use different drives for different projects (ie: often a new ssd for an entire film) so I don’t think they are excessively fragmented.

an SSD will actually never be fragmented. they don't lay out the data the same as it's done on a hard disk. the SSD has a "pool" of memory (NAND storage cells) that is reused and rotated (to even out the wear on them). When you write to an address (sector) on a hard drive, it is always the same physical location (unless there was a defect that is remapped). a write to an SSD goes to a new location each time and the old location is freed up back to the pool. SSDs do behave such that when you use/reuse every part of that pool (this doesn't mean your drive is full, it just means that it has circulated through the pool) the performance can drop - sometimes pretty noticeably. This probably happens more with "consumer" or client/desktop drives vs. more expensive (enterprise/datacenter class drives that have higher over-provisioning). Different brands of drives may also behave differently and some don't always balance their background tasks well. In my experience SSDs also go through lots of firmware changes (as the technology matures) so check with the manufacturer to make sure you have the latest.

I mention this because you said "film", so if you are working with large files and doing lots of edits, you might encounter this.

[kslight]

I haven’t trashed preferences or defragged in a little bit, but I use different drives for different projects (ie: often a new ssd for an entire film) so I don’t think they are excessively fragmented.

an SSD will actually never be fragmented. they don't lay out the data the same as it's done on a hard disk. the SSD has a "pool" of memory (NAND storage cells) that is reused and rotated (to even out the wear on them). When you write to an address (sector) on a hard drive, it is always the same physical location (unless there was a defect that is remapped). a write to an SSD goes to a new location each time and the old location is freed up back to the pool. SSDs do behave such that when you use/reuse every part of that pool (this doesn't mean your drive is full, it just means that it has circulated through the pool) the performance can drop - sometimes pretty noticeably. This probably happens more with "consumer" or client/desktop drives vs. more expensive (enterprise/datacenter class drives that have higher over-provisioning). Different brands of drives may also behave differently and some don't always balance their background tasks well. In my experience SSDs also go through lots of firmware changes (as the technology matures) so check with the manufacturer to make sure you have the latest.

I mention this because you said "film", so if you are working with large files and doing lots of edits, you might encounter this.

I’ve not checked for firmware updates I guess. TBH not even sure what brand of drives off the top of my head.

Currently the project I’m experiencing this with is not film and on a different drive, just what I consider a pretty normal/even conservative contemporary session (around 40 tracks tops, plus probably 8-10 busses, no virtual instruments). On the last film I did I was having issues midway through, maybe a year ago.

I also have 48gb of ram so I set pro tools to have a 16gb ram cache (have tried different numbers not noticed a difference on small sessions, I’m sure this project doesn’t approach a fraction of that).

I notice the crashes seem to stem from video intensive plugins, which is why I am suspect of whether this video card remains adequate for pro tools and or if pro tools handles video different than other daws (if I had logic and duplicated this session would I have the same crashes? I don’t know I don’t have logic).

[Recycled_Brains]

This shit has plagued me on and off for a long time. I'll go months where it's all good, then all the sudden I hit space bar to play back and maybe make it 3 seconds.

I have noticed a trend in relation to the graphics on the screen and it occurring. Most recently, the Fab Filter EQ was causing it, and previously the UAD ATR-102 when the spinning reel-to-reel graphic was showing. I can't say with 100% certainty that that is not a coincidence, but I suspect it isn't. In the case of the Fab Filter EQ, when I would collapse the plugin window, the problem stopped. It's definitely dependent on how many other plugins your using as well. So if I'm using either of the offenders above and there are very few other instances of plugins happening elsewhere in the session, it's all good. Once the session nears it's end and there is shit going on everywhere, it becomes more problematic.

[digitaldrummer]

I'm not on a mac... but I do have the latest Pro Tools and I've seen similar issues a few times... seems like there used to be a setting/preference in Pro Tools for enabling GPU acceleration or not (can't remember exactly what the setting did, but if you can find it might be worth trying.

also I had experienced errors a couple times when I had a lot of edits, so PT was keeping track of a lot of files. After consolidating the tracks (Shift+alt+3 or shift+command+3) it seemed to run better.

another thing is that with my UAD Apollo I can't set the buffer below 256. if I have literally any plugins (even native) running or PT wigs out. so I usually keep it around 512.

The last couple of days PT 2019.12 has decided to randomly crash (no error message, but there is a log..) when opening sessions. lovely.

[kslight]

It may be futile but I’m tempted to pick up a basic video card, to be metal compatible for Mojave and such, should I wish I update. See if it makes any difference.

[kslight]

Okay I ordered a new video card, will report back if it makes any difference. I’m finding suggestions from the Avid forum that a better video card can reduce errors...worst case scenario I’ll be able to get a modern monitor/run Mojave...it still costs less than what one year of pro tools updates would...

[Nick Sevilla]

Modern pro tools does not allow you to set how many cores it can use?

I’ve not used Onyx.

I haven’t trashed preferences or defragged in a little bit, but I use different drives for different projects (ie: often a new ssd for an entire film) so I don’t think they are excessively fragmented.

My video card is the factory 1gb card. I have considered it for upgrade but I was curious if this would affect Pro Tools.

I checked on mine, which is Standard Pro Tools, it only has the option to turn GPU use on and off, under "preferences/operation" tab.
I do know the HD version does allow to change the amount of native CPU processors used, just like in the older versions "TDM".

ONYX is free, and can be a lifesaver. I use it on average once a month, or when the laptop starts getting strange (resetting preferences, things resetting themselves, other random things not appearing right, or software quitting suddenly, etc.)

Try switching GPU processing on or off as your case may be. Also, good on you to try a better video card, that can only help things in any case.

I trash preferences whenever Avid recommends it. Yes, the video card can affect Pro Tools, as it (and any other DAW) can get graphics intensive. Especially now with their fancier plug in GUIs (Graphic User Interface).

[kslight]

Installed new video card today (Powercolor Sapphire RX570 ITX, if you care). Chose this one because it would be painless for Mac Pro installation...ie: no power adapters/relatively compact size and power consumption compared to the *monsters* out there...just used the basic 6 pin plug that the old card was using. Also cleaned out the whole system, fans, CPU tray while there...


On the plus side, at initial test the system seems to be noticeably quieter and massively cooler (you may remember I was inquiring about how much heat this system can push into my small room awhile back), so I will call that a win for the modest investment (around $109). So if you have an old Mac Pro that you just want to cool down (something you probably want to do anyway to keep it alive...), this seems worthwhile.

I also would like to eventually get a modern monitor, which seemed like it would be taxing the capacity of the old video card. And I now have the freedom to upgrade to Mojave if I feel inspired.



On the down side...of course makes no noticeable difference in Pro Tools. I'm not super surprised by this, but there was a part of me that hoped it would of course.

I also tried enabling and disabling GPU use in Pro Tools. Appears to make no difference.


Also you get no boot screen because its not a "Mac edition" card. I was aware of this but to anyone who is not..


For s + g's I downloaded Reaper, and I'm going to try to make a similar session in there with the same plugins and such and just see what happens.


I also downloaded Onyx, will give that a whirl too.


Thanks for the tips, all.

[kslight]

I got Reaper up and running...was a bit tricky. Had to go through my VST folders and clean out some old poop before it would launch. Reaper is a little alien to me so I didn't take the time make an "exact" copy of this session.

I created a dummy session importing a bunch of the stems from this session, 96k, and added 3 plugins to each track just for grins (Waves H-EQ, Neutron 2, Arouser). Duplicated until I Had around 60 stereo tracks like this. Had another 12 or so tracks that had several time based effects plugins on each of them (this is NOT how I would work, but for testing). Added Ozone 8, bus comp, and L2 to the master bus...

I dunno couldn't make Reaper "stop." It did start making pops and clicks when according to Activity Monitor I was pushing 80% CPU load (Reaper was using "2,200%" CPU). When I started pushing it further with more duplicates of the same tracks, it would slow down playback, and pop and click a lot...but again couldn't make it error out on me. If I disabled the three plugins on the master bus it would run perfect. But I feel like in a normal session I would have zero problems.

So I went to reopen Pro Tools.

"Problem" session is 96k, about 50 tracks INCLUDING buses, mixed stereo and mono, maybe half of those tracks have 1 plugin (Waves H EQ), then theres tracks with 2-3 total plugins, and a handful with 5 plugins. Master bus has Ozone 8 on it.

According to Apple Activity Monitor I am using no more than 30% CPU. Pro Tools is using "682%." Runs. As soon as I open *ANY* plugin to actually see the GUI...Waves H-EQ...Ozone, etc...I get 9173 errors. Activity monitor not reporting any spikes while doing this.

I am stumped.

Sounds like what I need to do is dump Pro Tools and learn something else.

[digitaldrummer]

I dunno, but maybe you are expecting too much from a 2010 era system? I realize that was a high end CPU in 2010, but that is now 10 years old. I'm guessing the Pro Tools and plugins are more current (and unfortunately many times, more demanding than 10 years ago). while on the surface the CPU clock speeds may not have not changed much in 10 years, the CPU internals, memory speed and other components have and a modern day i3 might even be better than an i7 from 10 years ago. not sure if you could increase buffers or something for Reaper, but I don't think pops and clicks would work for me. I'd consider that equivalent to crashed/stopped and maybe even prefer that it bails out with an error.

so what about freezing tracks? Another option would be get an external UAD (or some other kind of DSP) to offload plugins from the host CPU. or of course upgrade the system. I know its not what you want to hear, but when I have >30 tracks and lots of cpu intensive plugins I have to start freezing/committing/bouncing tracks as well. I do have a UAD Apollo and have to watch the DSP load as well on bigger sessions.

[kslight]

I dunno, but maybe you are expecting too much from a 2010 era system? I realize that was a high end CPU in 2010, but that is now 10 years old. I'm guessing the Pro Tools and plugins are more current (and unfortunately many times, more demanding than 10 years ago). while on the surface the CPU clock speeds may not have not changed much in 10 years, the CPU internals, memory speed and other components have and a modern day i3 might even be better than an i7 from 10 years ago. not sure if you could increase buffers or something for Reaper, but I don't think pops and clicks would work for me. I'd consider that equivalent to crashed/stopped and maybe even prefer that it bails out with an error.

so what about freezing tracks? Another option would be get an external UAD (or some other kind of DSP) to offload plugins from the host CPU. or of course upgrade the system. I know its not what you want to hear, but when I have >30 tracks and lots of cpu intensive plugins I have to start freezing/committing/bouncing tracks as well. I do have a UAD Apollo and have to watch the DSP load as well on bigger sessions.

That was just me exercising Reaper to see if I could crash it, creating a session far beyond what I normally expect, with way more instances of high CPU plugins than i normally use. Like those “stress tests” where people load 1000 reverb plugins or whatever.

It ran hiccup free below “2000%” utilization. Whereas Pro Tools is a total buzzkill at “640%”, in a modest session, even at the highest buffer settings. I assume that being a 12 core system, 2400% must be what it considers maximum with hyper threading. That to me suggests Pro Tools still isn’t all that efficient with a multi core system. I realize that one has to give up some power to the OS...but this still seems far off from really working the computer.

I agree it is an old system, and it will be replaced at some point. If i could be convinced that this old computer is the cause of these errors, it would become a priority of course. But if the Avid forums are any indication, it doesn’t seem like the 9173 has ever really gone away with newer systems, Mac or Windows. I also have a brand new 6 core laptop running windows 10 that I’m going to try out to see what it does. And if other DAWs don’t have this problem then it’s a lot less expensive to change software than to buy a decent computer.

I’m really over Pro Tools, I only have kept it this long because i have loads o old work in it...and I would like to audition DAWs for these kind of issues to try to isolate the problem, before making a move to a different computer. Reaper happened to be the first I’ve tested like this, because it is easy to try out fully before blowing any money.