Cymbals Eat Snare

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A.David.MacKinnon
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Re: Cymbals Eat Snare

Post by A.David.MacKinnon » Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:46 am

This tread is a reminder to me to always take a clean sample of each drum once the session is set up and ready to go. I frequently do but sometimes forget.
So many drummers (at least ones I record) can't be coached on playing style/volume without it fucking up everything else for them and killing the fun and productivity of the session. In those cases, having a clean sample of their snare can save the day. I may only use it in a couple of spots in mixdown but it's so worth it.
The other one thats often an issue is floor tom. So many bashers like to get that ride real low over the FT making it impossible to get a decent drum sound without all the hash.

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Re: Cymbals Eat Snare

Post by Colorblind » Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:54 am

A.David.MacKinnon wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:46 am
This tread is a reminder to me to always take a clean sample of each drum once the session is set up and ready to go. I frequently do but sometimes forget.
So many drummers (at least ones I record) can't be coached on playing style/volume without it fucking up everything else for them and killing the fun and productivity of the session. In those cases, having a clean sample of their snare can save the day. I may only use it in a couple of spots in mixdown but it's so worth it.
The other one thats often an issue is floor tom. So many bashers like to get that ride real low over the FT making it impossible to get a decent drum sound without all the hash.
If I'm recording myself I almost always grab clean samples, and it's saved me on more than one occasion. For whatever reason though, I tend to forget to do that most of the time when recording others.

I feel your pain re: the ride cymbal and floor tom. It's so refreshing when a drummer comes in who is flexible enough that you can move stuff around to benefit things sonically without messing up his ability to perform a good take. This is somewhat rare in my neck of the woods, but it's amazing what that can do for your confidence as an engineer, as opposed to a session where you're tweaking the snare for 3 hours with a drummer who is all over the map.

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Re: Cymbals Eat Snare

Post by vvv » Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:48 am

Anymore, when I get drums like that, I create loops, take the best measures and cut and paste.

If a fill is not easily fixed, cut it/replace it completely.

Modern music will support the sound/results, and life is too short to spend a lot of effort/time on fixing the work of someone bashing shite.
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Re: Cymbals Eat Snare

Post by losthighway » Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:46 pm

Colorblind wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:54 am
A.David.MacKinnon wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:46 am
This tread is a reminder to me to always take a clean sample of each drum once the session is set up and ready to go. I frequently do but sometimes forget.
So many drummers (at least ones I record) can't be coached on playing style/volume without it fucking up everything else for them and killing the fun and productivity of the session. In those cases, having a clean sample of their snare can save the day. I may only use it in a couple of spots in mixdown but it's so worth it.
The other one thats often an issue is floor tom. So many bashers like to get that ride real low over the FT making it impossible to get a decent drum sound without all the hash.
If I'm recording myself I almost always grab clean samples, and it's saved me on more than one occasion. For whatever reason though, I tend to forget to do that most of the time when recording others.

I feel your pain re: the ride cymbal and floor tom. It's so refreshing when a drummer comes in who is flexible enough that you can move stuff around to benefit things sonically without messing up his ability to perform a good take. This is somewhat rare in my neck of the woods, but it's amazing what that can do for your confidence as an engineer, as opposed to a session where you're tweaking the snare for 3 hours with a drummer who is all over the map.
You know, it's funny. I've always set aside this strategy as something people who have some kind of drum trigger sample type setup, which is not me. But after some of my quarantined experiments of building loops with percussive sounds I've tracked, the idea of dropping a couple clean snares over some poorly hit sections seems like the world's easiest fix. Might be good to grab those with overheads and room mic too so the ambience is consistent. Oh look, I'm making it harder already!

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Re: Cymbals Eat Snare

Post by A.David.MacKinnon » Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:52 pm

losthighway wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:46 pm
Colorblind wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:54 am
A.David.MacKinnon wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:46 am
This tread is a reminder to me to always take a clean sample of each drum once the session is set up and ready to go. I frequently do but sometimes forget.
So many drummers (at least ones I record) can't be coached on playing style/volume without it fucking up everything else for them and killing the fun and productivity of the session. In those cases, having a clean sample of their snare can save the day. I may only use it in a couple of spots in mixdown but it's so worth it.
The other one thats often an issue is floor tom. So many bashers like to get that ride real low over the FT making it impossible to get a decent drum sound without all the hash.
If I'm recording myself I almost always grab clean samples, and it's saved me on more than one occasion. For whatever reason though, I tend to forget to do that most of the time when recording others.

I feel your pain re: the ride cymbal and floor tom. It's so refreshing when a drummer comes in who is flexible enough that you can move stuff around to benefit things sonically without messing up his ability to perform a good take. This is somewhat rare in my neck of the woods, but it's amazing what that can do for your confidence as an engineer, as opposed to a session where you're tweaking the snare for 3 hours with a drummer who is all over the map.
You know, it's funny. I've always set aside this strategy as something people who have some kind of drum trigger sample type setup, which is not me. But after some of my quarantined experiments of building loops with percussive sounds I've tracked, the idea of dropping a couple clean snares over some poorly hit sections seems like the world's easiest fix. Might be good to grab those with overheads and room mic too so the ambience is consistent. Oh look, I'm making it harder already!
You're not. I almost always end up tracking all the kit mics for all the samples. If/when I need the sample I copy the kit mix I have going to the sample tracks and render it as a stereo file. That way the bleed/tone/everything stays the same.

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Re: Cymbals Eat Snare

Post by Burnt Ernie » Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:06 pm

See-That's why I Love You All!
I/Silverteens have a drummer that puts his ride 1" above the floor tom,at the back of the floor tom. And he wears earplugs,AND Those shooting range ear goggles. And never closes his high hat. So,this issue is very real to me.
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Re: Cymbals Eat Snare

Post by Nick Sevilla » Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:58 am

Burnt Ernie wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:06 pm
See-That's why I Love You All!
I/Silverteens have a drummer that puts his ride 1" above the floor tom,at the back of the floor tom. And he wears earplugs,AND Those shooting range ear goggles. And never closes his high hat. So,this issue is very real to me.
Hide his ear stuff. See what happens.
Howling at the neighbors. Hoping they have more mic cables.

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losthighway
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Re: Cymbals Eat Snare

Post by losthighway » Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:32 am

Nick Sevilla wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:58 am
Burnt Ernie wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:06 pm
See-That's why I Love You All!
I/Silverteens have a drummer that puts his ride 1" above the floor tom,at the back of the floor tom. And he wears earplugs,AND Those shooting range ear goggles. And never closes his high hat. So,this issue is very real to me.
Hide his ear stuff. See what happens.
I have boosted the overheads..... and maybe a little bit of the high end in the drummer's can before. Engineer's evil psyop.... maybe?

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Re: Cymbals Eat Snare

Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:02 am

Just have to note that it is entirely possible to wear ear plugs and goggles and still balance your kit correctly and/or play at a quiet volume. Drums are fucking loud and playing them without ear protection is not an option (for me anyway).

Also I have never, ever understood drummers wanting/needing any of the kit in their headphones. How? Why? The snare is 2 feet from your ears. It's always been all I can do to get the track loud enough in the phones for me to hear it over the drums.

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Re: Cymbals Eat Snare

Post by losthighway » Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:56 am

MoreSpaceEcho wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:02 am
Just have to note that it is entirely possible to wear ear plugs and goggles and still balance your kit correctly and/or play at a quiet volume. Drums are fucking loud and playing them without ear protection is not an option (for me anyway).

Also I have never, ever understood drummers wanting/needing any of the kit in their headphones. How? Why? The snare is 2 feet from your ears. It's always been all I can do to get the track loud enough in the phones for me to hear it over the drums.
Someone has to stand up for the drummers!

I find that when I use the common, foam, gun range/construction plugs that I lay into the cymbals WAY too hard, or that I don't really know what they're doing. Those ridged ones.... ribbed ones (hee hee)... are better but leave me open to more db of damage from the bass amp that's often next to me.

In the studio I've almost never put snare in the cans, and the one or two people who asked for it were bizarre to me, but I'm here to give the client what they want!

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Re: Cymbals Eat Snare

Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:38 am

losthighway wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:56 am
more db of damage
Yeah, this is what needs to be avoided at all costs. I've used the 30db foam plugs forever, you get used to it.

The last band I was in was (sometimes) super loud, at practice I wore plugs and goggles as well, you can actually hear everything so much better when the overall volume is at a reasonable level.

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Re: Cymbals Eat Snare

Post by losthighway » Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:55 am

Wait.... goggles?

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Re: Cymbals Eat Snare

Post by drumsound » Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:08 am

MoreSpaceEcho wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:02 am
Just have to note that it is entirely possible to wear ear plugs and goggles and still balance your kit correctly and/or play at a quiet volume. Drums are fucking loud and playing them without ear protection is not an option (for me anyway).

Also I have never, ever understood drummers wanting/needing any of the kit in their headphones. How? Why? The snare is 2 feet from your ears. It's always been all I can do to get the track loud enough in the phones for me to hear it over the drums.
THIS THIS THIS

If you commit to earplug, you get used to how they sound and you adjust accordingly. In the studio, drums don't usually go into the headphones until they are tracked and we're in overdub phase. When I'm playing a gig, more FOH guys are shocked that I don't want drums ("not even a little KIK?) in the monitors. My answer is that I know what I"M playing, I need to hear what THE OTHER PLAYERS are doing.
MoreSpaceEcho wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:38 am
losthighway wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:56 am
more db of damage
Yeah, this is what needs to be avoided at all costs. I've used the 30db foam plugs forever, you get used to it.

The last band I was in was (sometimes) super loud, at practice I wore plugs and goggles as well, you can actually hear everything so much better when the overall volume is at a reasonable level.
In sessions I would usually have plugs and headphones. I got in-ears for one of the bands I'm in, and have been using them in the studio too. I put the foam tips on them, so they do double duty.

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Re: Cymbals Eat Snare

Post by Nick Sevilla » Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:52 am

losthighway wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:32 am
I have boosted the overheads..... and maybe a little bit of the high end in the drummer's can before. Engineer's evil psyop.... maybe?
All is fair in love and record making,.. :D
Howling at the neighbors. Hoping they have more mic cables.

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Re: Cymbals Eat Snare

Post by Snarl 12/8 » Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:03 pm

It's funny, right before this thread popped up I was thinking about this from the completely other side of this question.

As a drummer who almost exclusively records himself and has listened to thousands of hours of his own drumming as mediated by microphones in the headphones I came up with the following observation: Cymbals Modulate Drums.

I think some drummers are going for an aesthetic where you can hear each individual drum and cymbal in the kit and some are going for more of a gestalt where it's the overall effect that they are after.

In the case of the OP I find myself wondering if the snare gets lost in the room, or only in the mics. If, acoustically, the snare gets lost in other sounds when the drummer does certain things, I wouldn't fix it. But if you can hear the snare at all times in the room, but not in the mics, then you need to fix it. IMO. What's annoying is when the drummer (or musician) favors one sound aesthetically, but plays the other way out of habit or lack of skill or lack of awareness. Then you're kinda screwed as an engineer/producer.

BTW- I realized this after putting my MoogerFooger Ring Modulator on an aux send of my mixer and drumming through it. When I turned it off and played, I realized I could get a similar effect by letting the wash of my ride cymbal ring while playing the drums. I never really had much use before for the sustainy parts of my drum sound, but now I do. Everything's modulating everything else in that damn mixing board. The trick is finding the euphonic combinations.
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