Planning for December DIY drum recording
Planning for December DIY drum recording
Greetings. My wife and I have formed a 2-piece band (because Covid). We have written some material and want to record ourselves over Christmas. Our practice space is pretty quiet and dead sounding. 326 square feet so not huge but not tiny.
Looking for suggestions for a good sound and easy mix, assuming a good performance of course.
We want a big rock sound. It’s somewhere between Indy rock and post metal. I’ll go in direct and reamp later if I need to. I play a weird guitar that covers bass and guitar range.
I’d like to stay at or under 8 channels for drums.
Usually we would go to a studio to do drums and then I do overdubs and mix but we are both high risk, so no.
I was going to put her drums in the middle of the room, as they are usually are in the corner.
Here are the mics I have. Willing to buy a couple more but only to solve real problems (as opposed to GAS).
Shure SM7, SM57, SM58
Sennheiser E906 (go-to guitar amp mic)
Shure KSM 32
AT 4050
Crown CM 700 x2
Avenson STO x2
Beyer m160 (love it on percussion and acoustic and guitar amp).
Her set is kick, snare, 2 toms, 2 crashes, a ride, and a hi hat.
So: CM-700s top and bottom of snare (out of phase on bottom), SM7 kick? If so, how would you set the switches, and where would you put it?
Is it worth investing in something with good rejection for the 2 toms? Or use the SM57 and 58? Or skip micing toms?
How would you set up room/overhead given that most of the ambience will have to be added in mixing?
Another band I was in recorded with a Glyn Johns setup in a dead room, and that sounded good and was easy to mix (also did kick and snare), but would that work with my condenser selection? What would you use?
Also, she is our singer and she’s got a sort midrangey voice—not super high or low for a woman. Can sound a little thin on recordings. What do you recommend for a vocal mic?
More info: recording into Logic. RME Babyface (will need another 8-channel ADC or interface to pull this off, might borrow or rent). Mic pres are 2 x Great River 500NV and a Chandler Germanium. And a FMR RNP.
So...what would you do?
Looking for suggestions for a good sound and easy mix, assuming a good performance of course.
We want a big rock sound. It’s somewhere between Indy rock and post metal. I’ll go in direct and reamp later if I need to. I play a weird guitar that covers bass and guitar range.
I’d like to stay at or under 8 channels for drums.
Usually we would go to a studio to do drums and then I do overdubs and mix but we are both high risk, so no.
I was going to put her drums in the middle of the room, as they are usually are in the corner.
Here are the mics I have. Willing to buy a couple more but only to solve real problems (as opposed to GAS).
Shure SM7, SM57, SM58
Sennheiser E906 (go-to guitar amp mic)
Shure KSM 32
AT 4050
Crown CM 700 x2
Avenson STO x2
Beyer m160 (love it on percussion and acoustic and guitar amp).
Her set is kick, snare, 2 toms, 2 crashes, a ride, and a hi hat.
So: CM-700s top and bottom of snare (out of phase on bottom), SM7 kick? If so, how would you set the switches, and where would you put it?
Is it worth investing in something with good rejection for the 2 toms? Or use the SM57 and 58? Or skip micing toms?
How would you set up room/overhead given that most of the ambience will have to be added in mixing?
Another band I was in recorded with a Glyn Johns setup in a dead room, and that sounded good and was easy to mix (also did kick and snare), but would that work with my condenser selection? What would you use?
Also, she is our singer and she’s got a sort midrangey voice—not super high or low for a woman. Can sound a little thin on recordings. What do you recommend for a vocal mic?
More info: recording into Logic. RME Babyface (will need another 8-channel ADC or interface to pull this off, might borrow or rent). Mic pres are 2 x Great River 500NV and a Chandler Germanium. And a FMR RNP.
So...what would you do?
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Re: Planning for December DIY drum recording
SM7 is my kick mic of choice, switches flat, I'd put it either just a smidge inside the hole or an inch or two off the front head, depending. Either way, at a 45 degree angle to the beater, not straight on.
I usually do a modified and mismatched GJ thing for overheads, 4050 either right over the snare or more likely right over the kick beater, and the m160 over my right shoulder, aimed at the snare. Both of those measured to be equidistant from the snare.
I haven't needed to mic the toms in my new room, but if you're doing anything remotely metal you're probably going to want to.
The Aveson's are omni? I'd put them on the floor ~5-6' in front of the kick, aimed at the spurs.
Middle of the room might not be the best spot, corner could actually be better, worth experimenting a bit.
SM7 is my vocal mic of choice too.
I usually do a modified and mismatched GJ thing for overheads, 4050 either right over the snare or more likely right over the kick beater, and the m160 over my right shoulder, aimed at the snare. Both of those measured to be equidistant from the snare.
I haven't needed to mic the toms in my new room, but if you're doing anything remotely metal you're probably going to want to.
The Aveson's are omni? I'd put them on the floor ~5-6' in front of the kick, aimed at the spurs.
Middle of the room might not be the best spot, corner could actually be better, worth experimenting a bit.
SM7 is my vocal mic of choice too.
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Re: Planning for December DIY drum recording
My $.02 on tom micing. If you're micing the BD and SD, its my opinion that you should also mic the toms. MANY fills involve both the toms and the snare, and the tonal/sonic difference almost never works, because the capture method is so different. I'm cool with low overs, or Glyn Johns, but when I do that, there's no snare mic, just the over(s).
I'm can't encourage SM5x models in any recorded situation, but I guess if you must... use the ones you have on toms. The Avensons might be cool overheads for stereo, or you could do a mono OH and use the Avensons on room for some spread.
I agree with Scott about the center of the room. I like drums to 'fire' into the room. I also always use room mics of some sort. I might be less of an issue if you aren't using any ambient mics.
I'm can't encourage SM5x models in any recorded situation, but I guess if you must... use the ones you have on toms. The Avensons might be cool overheads for stereo, or you could do a mono OH and use the Avensons on room for some spread.
I agree with Scott about the center of the room. I like drums to 'fire' into the room. I also always use room mics of some sort. I might be less of an issue if you aren't using any ambient mics.
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Re: Planning for December DIY drum recording
Just thinking three-dimensionally about the drum location in the room. If the drums are in the center, then they're the same distance from every wall (assuming a square room). If the drums are in a corner, they have different distances to all the walls and also the longest possible bounce path from the farthest wall.
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Re: Planning for December DIY drum recording
Quick question...
How realistic is it to do some "Pregame..." recordings before you actually do the "Serious" work you are planning on?
Seems like the chance to, if nothing else, rule some things that won't work out could help to make the most of the time that you have when you do the "Serious" recordings.
How realistic is it to do some "Pregame..." recordings before you actually do the "Serious" work you are planning on?
Seems like the chance to, if nothing else, rule some things that won't work out could help to make the most of the time that you have when you do the "Serious" recordings.
Re: Planning for December DIY drum recording
Thanks for the replies.
We will try from the corner then. The drums actually sound decent in our shitty iPhone practice recordings so I am optimistic I can get her a good sound.
She like a beefy floor tom, so I could go with KSM32 on that, or invest in something big sounding and hypercardioid? Thoughts on the snare mic plan? Like I said, I don’t mind investing to solve problems.
I could definitely try mono OH and then use the Avensons out front for spread. If I do that, is there anything I should do in terms of making sure there aren’t phase issues later?
Also, hadn’t thought of combining a condenser and a ribbon for overheads....
Since it’s our space, we have time to try things out and work on positioning. But it’s good to go in with a plan.
We will try from the corner then. The drums actually sound decent in our shitty iPhone practice recordings so I am optimistic I can get her a good sound.
She like a beefy floor tom, so I could go with KSM32 on that, or invest in something big sounding and hypercardioid? Thoughts on the snare mic plan? Like I said, I don’t mind investing to solve problems.
I could definitely try mono OH and then use the Avensons out front for spread. If I do that, is there anything I should do in terms of making sure there aren’t phase issues later?
Also, hadn’t thought of combining a condenser and a ribbon for overheads....
Since it’s our space, we have time to try things out and work on positioning. But it’s good to go in with a plan.
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Re: Planning for December DIY drum recording
In the interest of a "Beefy" floor tom, would micing the bottom of the floor tom potentially get you closer to "Beefy"? Getting close not really much of an issue in the phone recordings that you have?
Re: Planning for December DIY drum recording
I suggest that line for a lyric.
Also, 906 on the rack toms.
KSM32 and AT4050 in GJ are a option.
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Re: Planning for December DIY drum recording
There happens to be a drum phase thread happening right now. I gave a pretty detailed version of how I go about things.JES wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:30 pmThanks for the replies.
We will try from the corner then. The drums actually sound decent in our shitty iPhone practice recordings so I am optimistic I can get her a good sound.
She like a beefy floor tom, so I could go with KSM32 on that, or invest in something big sounding and hypercardioid? Thoughts on the snare mic plan? Like I said, I don’t mind investing to solve problems.
I could definitely try mono OH and then use the Avensons out front for spread. If I do that, is there anything I should do in terms of making sure there aren’t phase issues later?
Also, hadn’t thought of combining a condenser and a ribbon for overheads....
Since it’s our space, we have time to try things out and work on positioning. But it’s good to go in with a plan.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=90089
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Re: Planning for December DIY drum recording
It took me awhile to realize this. For the longest time drums were tracked under the cloud in the middle of the room, away from corners and walls to avoid unwanted bass buildup. I recently moved them back near the corner of the room where there's also less acoustic treatment and they just sound so much bigger there.MoreSpaceEcho wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:28 pm
Middle of the room might not be the best spot, corner could actually be better, worth experimenting a bit.
+1. Not necessary in many situations but if beefy is what you're after, a mic on the bottom will help get you there.numberthirty wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:36 pmIn the interest of a "Beefy" floor tom, would micing the bottom of the floor tom potentially get you closer to "Beefy"? Getting close not really much of an issue in the phone recordings that you have?
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Re: Planning for December DIY drum recording
I'm using an sE X1D (condenser) mic on an 18" floor tom right now and it is huge (tremendous, biggest sounding floor tom ever in the history of the...). sorry, yeah, it sounds huge and I chose it over a Sennheiser MD421. I think the KSM32 or AT4050 could do the trick for you.
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Re: Planning for December DIY drum recording
Lots of good ideas in here. I have a couple suggestions:
Start your setup and listening with fewer mics. Get kick, top of snare, and mono overhead happening first. Listen. See what you like, or don't. Add a second overhead. As you acclimate you can add tom and room mics. Sometimes the room mic is the bees knees, other times you find you keep mixing it lower because it's actually obsolete and you might as well mute it. Don't be afraid NOT to use one of the mics you put into the setup.
Also Glynn Johns is a fine mic setup, but I'd also consider if you're likely to mic the toms to put an overhead over the floor, equidistant from the snare in comparison to the rack tom/hh side mic. To me the GJ thing is really in the interest of having as few mics as possible, otherwise the sideways look of the ride side mic seems a wasted opportunity.
All that said, TRY EVERY SETUP. You can audition 3-4 different overhead setups if you take an extra half hour. It's fun when you have someone else there with you who cares about the sound (it sounds like you do). Everyone on here has a favorite, and they're all valid approaches. One is bound to work better with your room and your preferences.
Start your setup and listening with fewer mics. Get kick, top of snare, and mono overhead happening first. Listen. See what you like, or don't. Add a second overhead. As you acclimate you can add tom and room mics. Sometimes the room mic is the bees knees, other times you find you keep mixing it lower because it's actually obsolete and you might as well mute it. Don't be afraid NOT to use one of the mics you put into the setup.
Also Glynn Johns is a fine mic setup, but I'd also consider if you're likely to mic the toms to put an overhead over the floor, equidistant from the snare in comparison to the rack tom/hh side mic. To me the GJ thing is really in the interest of having as few mics as possible, otherwise the sideways look of the ride side mic seems a wasted opportunity.
All that said, TRY EVERY SETUP. You can audition 3-4 different overhead setups if you take an extra half hour. It's fun when you have someone else there with you who cares about the sound (it sounds like you do). Everyone on here has a favorite, and they're all valid approaches. One is bound to work better with your room and your preferences.
Re: Planning for December DIY drum recording
Thanks for all the replies. @Tony - that was a great post on drum phase. Easy to understand and I will follow your directions.
@losthighway, yes, my wife is totally into it and will happily work with me to get stuff set up and render opinions. I like the idea of starting simple and adding.
So it sounds like maybe I don't necessarily need to close mic the two toms to get a big floor tom sound?
If I'm trying mono overhead, do you recommend cardioid or omni or figure-8 (if I'm using the 4050 and have a choice)? Or should I start with the KSM as the mono overhead?
@digitaldrummer. Re the sE X1D, It looks like those aren't made anymore. Are you suggesting close micing the tom with a condenser? I read on a certain blue website that people like the CAD M179 in that role (+ hypercardioid pattern sounds good to me in that role)
Questions about renting stuff and preamps:
Looks like I can rent an API 3124V for a reasonable price. Does it make sense to use that on the kick, snare top, and overheads, or should I use it on toms if I'm close micing toms? I would also have 1 channel of Great River 500NV and a Chandler Germanium. The last 2 channels would be a "vanilla" pre. (Gotta save 1 GR for me going in direct).
I can also rent all the usual drum mics--Beta 52, Senn 421, Audix D series, if any of that will make a real difference. Hell, I could blow it out and rent a fancy LDC or two, but it's all about getting a good drum recording, not using fancy gear.
@losthighway, yes, my wife is totally into it and will happily work with me to get stuff set up and render opinions. I like the idea of starting simple and adding.
So it sounds like maybe I don't necessarily need to close mic the two toms to get a big floor tom sound?
If I'm trying mono overhead, do you recommend cardioid or omni or figure-8 (if I'm using the 4050 and have a choice)? Or should I start with the KSM as the mono overhead?
@digitaldrummer. Re the sE X1D, It looks like those aren't made anymore. Are you suggesting close micing the tom with a condenser? I read on a certain blue website that people like the CAD M179 in that role (+ hypercardioid pattern sounds good to me in that role)
Questions about renting stuff and preamps:
Looks like I can rent an API 3124V for a reasonable price. Does it make sense to use that on the kick, snare top, and overheads, or should I use it on toms if I'm close micing toms? I would also have 1 channel of Great River 500NV and a Chandler Germanium. The last 2 channels would be a "vanilla" pre. (Gotta save 1 GR for me going in direct).
I can also rent all the usual drum mics--Beta 52, Senn 421, Audix D series, if any of that will make a real difference. Hell, I could blow it out and rent a fancy LDC or two, but it's all about getting a good drum recording, not using fancy gear.
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Re: Planning for December DIY drum recording
The SM7 as kick thing isn't for everyone. It's really old school. It can take some EQ and get part of the way to that scooped mids, heavy attack sound, but I use it when I want my kick to sound like a 60's record with more mids, not as much boom and click.
If you're used to a more modern kick sound you might want to rent one of the newer DKG, Sennheiser, Shure models. I won't open up the debate of the relative merits except to say that the Audix is for someone who want to be metal.
If you're used to a more modern kick sound you might want to rent one of the newer DKG, Sennheiser, Shure models. I won't open up the debate of the relative merits except to say that the Audix is for someone who want to be metal.
Re: Planning for December DIY drum recording
No right or wrong answers, when I think big sound and two piece band I think of fewer drum mics, not more. That’s my own preferred aesthetic when I can get away with it (ie: if you don’t need separation or sound replacement magic). Kick drum mic, mono overhead behind her pointed at the snare..maybe a top and or bottom snare mic also. Or maybe L and R overheads.
I’ve never really preferred the glen johns setup to my own...if you have time to experiment sure but it doesn’t ever do it for me when I do it.
It really depends on a lot of variables, but “mo mics mo problems”...i do not prefer a mic on every piece, and to me close mics do not sound “big”, I like the space around the drums..if that makes sense. My favorite drum sounds have been 2-4 mics.
If her voice sounds thin maybe try a dynamic on her?
I’ve never really preferred the glen johns setup to my own...if you have time to experiment sure but it doesn’t ever do it for me when I do it.
It really depends on a lot of variables, but “mo mics mo problems”...i do not prefer a mic on every piece, and to me close mics do not sound “big”, I like the space around the drums..if that makes sense. My favorite drum sounds have been 2-4 mics.
If her voice sounds thin maybe try a dynamic on her?
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