M/S guitars and other stuff

[vvv]

Has anyone ever done a project, or even a song, where all of the guitars are M/S? And how about vox?
(Assume 3 elec. guitars, bass, drums, LV and BV's, the occasional keys and perc., mebbe an ac. guitar)

I've used M/S for rhythm pairs, or a lead, or just the drums.

I'm pretty sure it won't work well for bass, but will try it.

The project in mind uses pre-recorded multitrack drums (some likely just stereo drum racks already mixed), and I really don't wanna try to re-amp 'em.

Anyone have any pros or cons to tell?

[Nick Sevilla]

I did one for a wonderful singer, but only the acoustic guitar was M/S.

It was acoustic style folk music, so M/S was really good for that style.

Very few additional instruments.

[losthighway]

Yeah, I'd do it as a width/depth enhancer for a single guitar. It would be weird to have two guitars in M/S because their mids would both have to shoot down the middle, it'd be like a stereo enhanced pair of mono guitars.... maybe cool though, ya never know.

[Magnetic Services]

I thought I did it for the guitar on this song: https://caleyconway.bandcamp.com/track/love-is-sex

But I found a picture from the session and I was wrong - it was actually a shotgun mic pointed at the amp from across a big warehouse room, with an ORTF pair of condensers where the side mic would go in an M/S setup. I think M/S would have given me a similar effect though. It's subtle, but it really situates the guitar in the space.

[vvv]

Interesting sound, MagSrv.

OK, I guess I'll motorvate into the great unknowed, link back when I got sompin'.

Thanx, all y'all!

[drumsound]

I thought I did it for the guitar on this song: https://caleyconway.bandcamp.com/track/love-is-sex

But I found a picture from the session and I was wrong - it was actually a shotgun mic pointed at the amp from across a big warehouse room, with an ORTF pair of condensers where the side mic would go in an M/S setup. I think M/S would have given me a similar effect though. It's subtle, but it really situates the guitar in the space.

Thanks really groovy. Did she sing and play, and how was the voice done?

[jimjazzdad]

Yeah, I'd do it as a width/depth enhancer for a single guitar. It would be weird to have two guitars in M/S because their mids would both have to shoot down the middle, it'd be like a stereo enhanced pair of mono guitars.... maybe cool though, ya never know.

No reason you can't pan an MS guitar in post, is there? I have taken this approach in the mix: you make the guitar as wide as you want it in MS, and then just pan the resulting stereo track...(or am I missing something?)

[vvv]

I have done that when I have two rhythm tracks, run the side tracks opposite phase at 90% left-right, and then one mid at 10:00, the other at 2:00.

Worked a treat.

What I'm picturing (hadda redo bass on a cuppla new C19 project tracks and vox on 1 so not yet started) is mebbe 3 guitars in M/S, and possibly the bass, and occasional keys. Not sure re vox, tambo ... Not drums because they were not so recorded, but I could re-amp 'em ...

[Magnetic Services]

I thought I did it for the guitar on this song: https://caleyconway.bandcamp.com/track/love-is-sex

But I found a picture from the session and I was wrong - it was actually a shotgun mic pointed at the amp from across a big warehouse room, with an ORTF pair of condensers where the side mic would go in an M/S setup. I think M/S would have given me a similar effect though. It's subtle, but it really situates the guitar in the space.

Thanks really groovy. Did she sing and play, and how was the voice done?

Yep; she wrote, sang and played that tune. The vocal was an LDC in bidirectional mode (don't remember why I did it that way) with just a high-pass, slight low-mid boost and slight mid cut. Sent in parallel to a Lexicon reverb (not sure what setting, but probably plate or large hall) with additional mid scooping and de-essing. "Mastered" to two tracks of a Tascam 38, just because I wanted to

[vvv]

I just remembered this thread.

Here is the M/S project I was talking about. I used M/S only on guitars, but not all the guitars - just the ones into the Blackstar amp.

As well, a few are done with pedal simulators.

If you wanna guess, give a listen, then click on the "Lyric" drop down next to the song and it will give gear used and say which guitar parts are M/S.

https://vlayman.bandcamp.com/album/the-side-piece-a-e-p

[vernier]

What is M/S ?...I've never seen that before.

[digitaldrummer]

mid/side recording (or processing)

[losthighway]

Yeah, I'd do it as a width/depth enhancer for a single guitar. It would be weird to have two guitars in M/S because their mids would both have to shoot down the middle, it'd be like a stereo enhanced pair of mono guitars.... maybe cool though, ya never know.

No reason you can't pan an MS guitar in post, is there? I have taken this approach in the mix: you make the guitar as wide as you want it in MS, and then just pan the resulting stereo track...(or am I missing something?)

You totally can. But from my point of view, why would you? Say you take a wide stereo track, from the M/S process, or even an XY or ORTF pair, but especially Mid/Side. If you pan the stereo track to, let's say the right. Then the right half of your stereo image goes further right- if it wasn't already panned all the way- and the left half of your image goes to the center. But there is no center speaker, it's an illusion. So you imagine listening to that M/S guitar in headphones. The right half of the stereo is on the right, and some of the left is on the left, but now a bit of it is on the right, and it's out of phase with the right so really it's just making both a little quieter and putting the center mic in a more prominent role. The illusion of width from the M/S strategy is now a weird, lopsided phase trick.

I'm totally game for some other folks on here to tell me how wrong I am, too. Also, I'm not 100 percent, anti panning stereo tracks, but it's always a little weird to me, and I am pretty conservative about having the M/S picture centered around a center mic with the sides equally panned for the reasons above.

[Scodiddly]

One of the big benefits of mid-side recordings is that the sound sums cleanly to mono by cancelling out the side signal. Any time you narrow the image you're getting into that territory.

[Nick Sevilla]

You totally can. But from my point of view, why would you? Say you take a wide stereo track, from the M/S process, or even an XY or ORTF pair, but especially Mid/Side. If you pan the stereo track to, let's say the right. Then the right half of your stereo image goes further right- if it wasn't already panned all the way- and the left half of your image goes to the center. But there is no center speaker, it's an illusion. So you imagine listening to that M/S guitar in headphones. The right half of the stereo is on the right, and some of the left is on the left, but now a bit of it is on the right, and it's out of phase with the right so really it's just making both a little quieter and putting the center mic in a more prominent role. The illusion of width from the M/S strategy is now a weird, lopsided phase trick.

I'm totally game for some other folks on here to tell me how wrong I am, too. Also, I'm not 100 percent, anti panning stereo tracks, but it's always a little weird to me, and I am pretty conservative about having the M/S picture centered around a center mic with the sides equally panned for the reasons above.

I agree with you, because I have attempted to mix more than one M/S acoustic guitar like this, and in more than just one project. It just does not work. Instead, I get rid of the Side mic, making the source Mono, and then mix from there. Sometimes, an arrangement changes mid production, so you have to sacrifice the old idea of the "wide stereo guitar" for whatever new thing the artist wants. For that, I do have to be infinitely grateful for the existence of the DAW. You can always compare and contrast, or go back to an earlier point in the production if need be.