Tom tricks

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losthighway
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Tom tricks

Post by losthighway » Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:59 pm

In ages of doing this, I've rarely been tempted, but I'm working on just the right song, with just the wrong problem-

The floor tom is pretty anemic, and everything else is pretty big raging rock. In my next mix revision I'm considering trying:

Putting the floor tom through a pitch shift an octave down and sneaking that (way) under the natural one.
Triggering a low synth note with the floor tom, also mixed low.

Any other clever ideas, or advice?

I know some of you guys like drum replace, but I'm a stubborn weirdo and am hoping for some other goofy trick.

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Re: Tom tricks

Post by Brett Siler » Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:31 am

Since you don't like sample replacement you could try reamping the floor tom through a pa/bass/guitar amp. Then set a real floor tom in front of the speaker, mic up the floor tom and blend that in or use it by itself. You may need to align it in your daw because of the latency from reamping. When I was still using an old version of Pro Tools and didn't have a drum trigger program or sampled drum program I used the technique I described above with great success.

The band recorded themselves and the drums were so fucked up I had to do this. The kick was meh, they only mic'd the bottom of the snare, rack tom sounded pretty thin and cardboard, floor tom mic I think was on the floor or something. The snare was louder than the floor tom in that mic! Single overhead that sounded ok. I transformed it into a respectable kit that still had a raw but punchy sound that fit their music. They had no clue but were happy with the mix!
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Re: Tom tricks

Post by Rodgre » Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:27 am

I've definitely done the pitch shifter trick on toms before as well as running it through a resonant low pass filter with a peak around 80Hz which would "ring" every time the tom would hit. I'd have to either edit or gate the track in order for this to work. Sometimes when I find a tom track to be anemic, it's because of phase issues, but many times, a drummer might have the tom too choked with no resonance and it just does a cardboardy thud and needs all the help it can get.

Roger

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Re: Tom tricks

Post by digitaldrummer » Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:33 am

as Rodgre said, definitely check phase - and then check again. And check it in the entire mix.

Maybe try some parallel compression with something that adds some subtle distortion/harmonics. not necessarily a bunch of low end, but something to help it be heard in the mix.
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Re: Tom tricks

Post by drumsound » Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:43 am

These things do sound like they could be phase related. I spend a lot of time at the beginning of sessions making sure the phase is right on the drums. If I mix something from outside, I make sure I do the same type of checking I do when I'm tracking. I'll even tape a note to the console to remind me to do so.

I've used Alter Boy on floor toms and bass drums before and it can work well. Super colored EQ and Compressions can also help weak sounding toms.

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Re: Tom tricks

Post by losthighway » Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:27 am

Yeah, I'll definitely play with phase before I get into experimental science. The drum has plenty of attack, just not much tone at the fundamental or sustain (not that you want too much of that).

It also might just require some compression, which oddly I rarely feel like I need to do on toms.

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Re: Tom tricks

Post by Recycled_Brains » Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:10 am

Rodgre wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:27 am
...but many times, a drummer might have the tom too choked with no resonance and it just does a cardboardy thud and needs all the help it can get.

Roger
Or they're hitting it too hard and choking it that way.

Louder than Liftoff makes a Chop Shop plugin that has a "lo-rider" function. What it does is it creates a resonant filter where the lo-cut frequency is set combined with a LPF (I think). So what you can do (what I have done successfully a handful of times, specifically on toms), is turn that feature on, turn the "bump" control all the way up, engage the "more" switch (for emphasis) and scan with the lo-cut freq knob until you hear the tom start to have some tone, then bring the lo-rider mix down or up until you're happy. I don't know how or why, but it's different than just boosting on a regular EQ. If you want, send me the tom track and I can try it and see if it will helps.

Another thing I would consider... could there be an octave or 2 above the fundamental pitch of the tom (if there even is one) that you could accentuate? Maybe you could trick your ears into hearing a full sounding drum, despite it lacking the lowest frequencies. I listen to old records and the toms are all midrange. You never hear big booming floor toms, and you never miss them either.
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Re: Tom tricks

Post by vvv » Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:16 am

I have been known to gate the tom, compress it, send it to a big verb, compress and gate that, and bring up under the original tracks.

But a sometimes easier thing is to edit a copy of the overhead tracks to get just the toms, and start messing with that and bring it back in - often, just adding it back to boost.
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Re: Tom tricks

Post by Recycled_Brains » Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:27 am

The easiest thing is sample replacement. I wouldn't deny yourself that option if this gets too frustrating. I would probably replace both toms for consistency's sake. A lot of the tricks mentioned are super cool and I want to try a couple of them for sure, but they sound pretty time consuming so if this is something a client needs to get done in a timely fashion it might be best to take the "out". No shame in it. :P
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Re: Tom tricks

Post by losthighway » Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:43 am

Recycled_Brains wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:10 am
Or they're hitting it too hard and choking it that way.
That's the one.

The drummer's completion of a second beer coincided with his favorite part to play of the couple songs that were recorded that evening. Funny how you can hit a tom harder and make it sound wimpier.

Luckily this is not a client, but my band so the problem is only artistic, not professional.

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Re: Tom tricks

Post by Recycled_Brains » Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:24 pm

losthighway wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:43 am
Recycled_Brains wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:10 am
Or they're hitting it too hard and choking it that way.
That's the one.

The drummer's completion of a second beer coincided with his favorite part to play of the couple songs that were recorded that evening. Funny how you can hit a tom harder and make it sound wimpier.

Luckily this is not a client, but my band so the problem is only artistic, not professional.
Just 2!?

It's something I've been trying to address more and more with drummers before we start to try and head it off beforehand. Im not always successful, but it's been helpful . I also usually will ask them to hit each drum 4 times at slightly different velocities at the beginning or end of tracking drums, so that I have some clean hits to use as replacements for the rogue smashes where the waveform just looks like a straight line up and down on the screen.
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Re: Tom tricks

Post by vvv » Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:55 pm

+1.

I do it with everything - kicks and crash cymbals can be particularly useful.
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Re: Tom tricks

Post by vernier » Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:43 pm

losthighway wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:59 pm
In ages of doing this, I've rarely been tempted, but I'm working on just the right song, with just the wrong problem-

The floor tom is pretty anemic, and everything else is pretty big raging rock. In my next mix revision I'm considering trying:

Putting the floor tom through a pitch shift an octave down and sneaking that (way) under the natural one.
Triggering a low synth note with the floor tom, also mixed low.

Any other clever ideas, or advice?

I know some of you guys like drum replace, but I'm a stubborn weirdo and am hoping for some other goofy trick.
Switching out the floor tom for one you like might be worth trying.

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Re: Tom tricks

Post by Theo_Karon » Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:03 am

Since no one has mentioned it yet - a subharmonic synthesizer can really help with this problem too. DBX makes a bunch of good ones that are all pretty cheap, like $100 ish - great to have in the rack for all sorts of things.

The low end it generates is usually way too low (it works in the 25-50 hz range) but you can saturate the result and then high pass it - this way you get the overtones that imply the lower information without flooding out your low end. Sometimes a bit of the synthesized low end can be cool too, but almost never without a high pass to curb the very subbest of the subs. A little goes a long way and lots of monitors don't even reproduce those frequencies so be careful!

I like this method vs pitch shifting etc because that tends to alter the timbre so much that it's a recognizable addition - the sub synth when used well can be invisible.

Also combine with re-amping through a tom if it's still not doing the trick. A useful method is to reamp through a smaller speaker (say a near field studio speaker that rolls off around 50 or 60) so the super sub stuff gets taken care of that way.

Cheers

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Re: Tom tricks

Post by losthighway » Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:44 am

Theo_Karon wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:03 am
Since no one has mentioned it yet - a subharmonic synthesizer can really help with this problem too. DBX makes a bunch of good ones that are all pretty cheap, like $100 ish - great to have in the rack for all sorts of things.

The low end it generates is usually way too low (it works in the 25-50 hz range) but you can saturate the result and then high pass it - this way you get the overtones that imply the lower information without flooding out your low end. Sometimes a bit of the synthesized low end can be cool too, but almost never without a high pass to curb the very subbest of the subs. A little goes a long way and lots of monitors don't even reproduce those frequencies so be careful!

I like this method vs pitch shifting etc because that tends to alter the timbre so much that it's a recognizable addition - the sub synth when used well can be invisible.

Also combine with re-amping through a tom if it's still not doing the trick. A useful method is to reamp through a smaller speaker (say a near field studio speaker that rolls off around 50 or 60) so the super sub stuff gets taken care of that way.

Cheers

Theo
Yeah, I like this trick. I did a mix last year where the band wanted to switch gears to something full hip hop, which I've never done. I triggered a very low synth note off the kick and they were very psyched. Surprisingly easy. It's only a trick of going just far enough, but not too far.

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