Whatcha's workin on this weekender?

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Rodgre
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Re: Whatcha's workin on this weekender?

Post by Rodgre » Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:15 am

I tracked a band on Saturday and Sunday. 8 tunes. All basics done, except for bass, which the band does not think they need a bass player. It might be up to me to convince them that they do and add bass tracks myself. The tracks came out really good to start out with. The only real frustration was that the two guitar players could not tell that their guitars were out of tune with each other. It was an intonation thing combined with high action/light strings on one of the guitars so every time they fretted, things would go sharp. My ears were going all wonky like nails on a chalkboard, but they couldn't hear it. We managed to get through pretty well when all was said and done. I just find it fascinating sometimes how a performer can nitpick these miniscule and pretty insignificant things, yet completely not hear that they're out of tune, which I think is more offensive than anything.

There's so much psychology involved in record production!

My two favorite moments of wisdom over the weekend: "Lack of treble does not equal more bass" and "if it's going to affect your performance, go commando"

Roger

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A.David.MacKinnon
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Re: Whatcha's workin on this weekender?

Post by A.David.MacKinnon » Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:05 am

Ugh....jealous. I haven't put mics in front of another person in over a year and it's going to be at least September before there's any chance of that changing.

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Rodgre
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Re: Whatcha's workin on this weekender?

Post by Rodgre » Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:27 am

A.David.MacKinnon wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:05 am
Ugh....jealous. I haven't put mics in front of another person in over a year and it's going to be at least September before there's any chance of that changing.
That's a real bummer! I'm sorry.

Are you in Toronto? I have some very good friends that engineer up there and I wonder if you know them. One is Chris Perry. He's been a close friend for a super long time, since his band An April March used to play with my band a lot. He now produces a lot of other artists, notably Courage My Love.

I love Toronto. My favorite city I've ever been to.

mmmmm Butter tarts.


Roger

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Re: Whatcha's workin on this weekender?

Post by vvv » Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:59 am

Rodgre wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:15 am
The only real frustration was that the two guitar players could not tell that their guitars were out of tune with each other.
Man, adding bass is either gonna help or really hurt that! :mrgreen:
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Rodgre
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Re: Whatcha's workin on this weekender?

Post by Rodgre » Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:46 am

vvv wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:59 am
Rodgre wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:15 am
The only real frustration was that the two guitar players could not tell that their guitars were out of tune with each other.
Man, adding bass is either gonna help or really hurt that! :mrgreen:
Exactly what I was thinking. We did our best, retracking and retuning, but these guitar players were self-taught and, well.... sometimes a group of musicians can play in time with each other as they play live, no click track. As soon as you add a rigid element, like playing to an existing drum track for an overdub, some players just can't lock in. Unless the drummer can ebb and flow and they can all sort of follow and lead each other at the same time, there's no easy way to get them all to lock in. It's a strange phenomenon. I run into it a lot with solo performers who want to do a more "produced" track with drums or other musicians. They are so used to following their own tempo that it's really disconcerting to be tied to someone else. It's very hard for them to play in time. I see it way more often than I want to admit.

Roger

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Re: Whatcha's workin on this weekender?

Post by vvv » Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:20 am

I encountered this timing issue recently myself.

I have good time, I know I do, as bassist and often as rhythm guitarist it has been my experience that the drummer follows me.

I believe visual cues make a difference, of course.

But live is different than recording, especially file-share recording, and when I was starting the songs by recording on acoustic guitar to have my Canadian friend* add stuff, and in particular drums, he had some issues with my timing.

So for that project, I hadda learn to play to click, and what kind of click to use. As a matter of fact, I ended up using simple drum beats as click tracks.

Tuning issues (in over 100 songs, we had a few) were remedied by re-do.


*Collaborator on the C-19 EP's linked at the below bandcamp.
Last edited by vvv on Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rodgre
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Re: Whatcha's workin on this weekender?

Post by Rodgre » Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:23 am

vvv wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:20 am
As a matter of fact, I ended up using simple drum beats as click tracks.
Very often this is the best way to go for someone who is not used to playing to a click. A simple beat, maybe even one that has a little more feel to it than a quantized 8th note thing, is way easier for most people to play to than TOCK TOCK TOCK TOCK...

Roger

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Re: Whatcha's workin on this weekender?

Post by vvv » Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:26 am

Yes, made a huge difference.

Silversmith actually forwarded me about 20 different MP3 beats inna ZIP he called, "Cheesy Drums". :lol:

I would write a song, and then try to find a beat that fit; often, I would alter the song to fit a beat.

Hey, it's still my song, I can do that! :twisted:
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Re: Whatcha's workin on this weekender?

Post by markjazzbassist » Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:28 am

Rodgre wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:46 am
Exactly what I was thinking. We did our best, retracking and retuning, but these guitar players were self-taught and, well.... sometimes a group of musicians can play in time with each other as they play live, no click track. As soon as you add a rigid element, like playing to an existing drum track for an overdub, some players just can't lock in. Unless the drummer can ebb and flow and they can all sort of follow and lead each other at the same time, there's no easy way to get them all to lock in. It's a strange phenomenon. I run into it a lot with solo performers who want to do a more "produced" track with drums or other musicians. They are so used to following their own tempo that it's really disconcerting to be tied to someone else. It's very hard for them to play in time. I see it way more often than I want to admit.
i recorded bass for an artist on a whole record like that. he was mostly a solo guy or would busk or have upright bass or just drums or something. his timing was off, and he kept blaming the drummer. so we went to click and me and drums still nailed it and producer/engineer guy was finally like i think it's the guitar. dude scrapped the project, never released or fixed it. shame as there was some good music there but i think the shame of realizing his timing was bad was too much to bear or something. also all the fixing by the engineer would have been a nightmare.

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Rodgre
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Re: Whatcha's workin on this weekender?

Post by Rodgre » Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:43 am

markjazzbassist wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:28 am
i think the shame of realizing his timing was bad was too much to bear or something. also all the fixing by the engineer would have been a nightmare.
There is SO much psychology involved in recording. I have had a few projects scrapped after a client REALLY heard what they were doing and realized that the playback did not match what was happening in their heads, performance and intonation wise. I usually go as far out of my way as I can to softball problems like this to a client. I want them to be aware of it, and I want them to learn from it, but I know how insecure people can be and to all of a sudden realize that you're not what you thought you were is quite a pill to swallow. It's important to not kill an artist's confidence, while still being able to be honest and constructively try to help them be "better." I'm not here to show them that they're wrong or that they're a bad musician. I'm here to get the best performance out of them and sometimes a client needs to know that they should be paying attention to a detail they never considered before. That said, I have done so much of my fair share of editing to make someone sound like they're at least near the beat. It's all part of the process.

Roger

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Re: Whatcha's workin on this weekender?

Post by A.David.MacKinnon » Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:00 pm

This stuff can be such a drag. It's especially bad when it derails a session or kills a project dead.
At my old studio I did a one day session for a latin/post rock band. Kind of like God Speed with a heavy latin element. Plus two rappers. It sounds like a train wreck on paper but they were really quite phenomenal. They were playing to a click and from where I was sitting in the control room, listening without the click, they were great. The music had energy and flow and the timing was really solid. However, one of the rappers got so hung up on everything being machine like perfect against the click that he killed the session. I very gently tried to convince him that it wasn't a problem and when you listen without the click it's an amazing band, locked in together and crazy tight. He could not be convinced and the session ground to a halt. The band went home very discouraged. I felt terrible for them and I lost what could have been a good long term client because they had a bad experience at my place.
One of those instances of people faking themselves out and making a problem out of nothing.

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Re: Whatcha's workin on this weekender?

Post by Nick Sevilla » Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:01 pm

Rodgre wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:15 am
... The only real frustration was that the two guitar players could not tell that their guitars were out of tune with each other. It was an intonation thing combined with high action/light strings on one of the guitars so every time they fretted, things would go sharp. ...

Roger
That sucks. I've had to teach more than a few players both of bass and guitar, about intonation. The trick is to try to let them find out for themselves how out of tune their instruments are when fretted. Funny to watch them try to tune the shit out of it, with zero positive results.

I then quietly come out with a toolbox with the required tools for the job, and ask them for 15 minutes. First they are usually horrified that SOMEONE ELSE is going to TOUCH the PRIVATES of their precious instrument. Before I was an audio engineer, I used to be a guitar techie. ;)

But I have rarely had anyone complain afterwards.

I always recommend anyone who plays or records guitars and basses, to learn this very simple job. It saves a production.
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Rodgre
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Re: Whatcha's workin on this weekender?

Post by Rodgre » Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:36 am

A.David.MacKinnon wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:00 pm
One of those instances of people faking themselves out and making a problem out of nothing.
Like I mentioned, there is so much psychology involved in all of this. I have had clients who are ocd about certain things that really didn't matter, based on misinformation or based on what they read somewhere, but have no actual experience with. A recent client read that his favorite bands used such and such brand guitars so he would ONLY use those brands of guitars on his session. It didn't matter what model, what pickups, what modifications, etc, (a Tele with humbuckers is still a Tele, right?) just that it was that brand. This is just a case of ocd or some other sort of disorder, I think. We made the record fine, but when one particular guitar that was owned by another engineer was no longer at the studio for the next session, it was a bit of a panic. Not that the guitar had a specific sound we couldn't get another way, but because it was the aforementioned brand.

I try to be super accommodating to the artist. I will intonate guitars, fix amps, retube things, let them not use headphones if that's a problem, use clicks, don't use clicks.... whatever gets them to be comfortable and perform their best. Sometimes there is just so much anxiety bursting out of an artist that there's no saving them. They do take after take without any improvement because they are just getting more and more anxious and psyching themselves out. There is sometimes an "us against them" attitude between a band and me. It's very rare and it mostly happened early in my career, working with young and inexperienced bands that felt an insecurity and needed to feel like they were in control of the session. "Use this kind of mic", "yes, I need to have my amp this loud".... that sort of thing. You just have to see where it's coming from and roll with it and try to get the artist in their zone so they can perform their best and make your job easier, later.

Roger

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