replicating "bleed" in a multitrack recording

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joninc
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replicating "bleed" in a multitrack recording

Post by joninc » Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:58 pm

I'm working on a lot of mixing these days and been having some conversations with artists about the way certain recordings feel and why.

Stuff like Bill Withers that was recorded live off the floor and has some bleed has a distinctive feel, space and sound that is hard to replicate when things are recorded separately. I know this was recorded by great musicians in a nice studio and that is obviously key to the feel.

Have any of you found ways to help make something that was recorded in isolation (each part separately) with only close mics FEEL a bit more live? is reverb the only sort of tool to be used in this kind of situation?

I know you can't replicate it exactly and that the players are interacting in a unique way when they play live - I'm just trying to find ways to bring a little of that sonic character into some recordings that are nicely done and well played, but lacking that kind of "space". I'm not wanting it to feel super wet or obviously verb-y either... so smaller chambers/rooms are probably better.

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Re: replicating "bleed" in a multitrack recording

Post by Nick Sevilla » Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:05 pm

Hi,

I sometimes create a fake sound stage, by making a mockup of a stage setup on paper, deciding the size of the stage, then placing the musicians in their own place, and measuring them all to a point of listening out in the audience, or alternatively, the singer's position as the "zero" point.

Take say, a 40' wide stage, with 20' depth, and put your audience listening position some 25 feet out in front of the front edge of this rectangle.

So, you simply use a direct line of sight to measure the distance between the listening point, and each musician, and use a 100% wet no feedback delay line, to push back each musician to their respective spot in the stage, along with the panning.

If it was all recorded perfectly dry and in isolation, this works wonders.

Remember the speed of sound, and translate that into milliseconds per foot.
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Re: replicating "bleed" in a multitrack recording

Post by losthighway » Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:16 pm

joninc wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:58 pm
Have any of you found ways to help make something that was recorded in isolation (each part separately) with only close mics FEEL a bit more live? is reverb the only sort of tool to be used in this kind of situation?
Maybe there are other ways, but this to me calls for using reverb in a different way than we normally do.

I have two possible solutions:

1) send out 'groups' of instruments as sections through a stereo compressor and then a stereo reverb. The reverb should be shorter than most of the other stuff you use, think 'small wood room' type of preset (my TC Electronics M2000 actually has a 'mic bleed' that's really quick). Maybe a little bit of predelay and a very short decay. Print runs of that for each of your instrumental sections and turn each so low you almost can't hear it. Maybe more on the percussion and keys, medium on guitars, almost none on bass. If you don't do the printing effects thing, just use different quantities in your sends depending on the group.

2) Reamp the rhythm tracks into the live room, maybe dry, or maybe add like 20-30% of some kind of medium room thing in with the dry tracks. I find having a stereo pair of speakers in the live room, and a stereo mic setup in the middle of the room (lately mid/side tends to be my favorite) and capture that (I also futz with some stereo compression either on the way out to the speakers, or coming back in through the mics). You can fool with sliding the recorded room tracks and creating predelay, it gets real slappy really quick with that. Again, I find this works best when it's turned down so low that you think you can't quite hear it until you mute it and something is missing.
Last edited by losthighway on Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: replicating "bleed" in a multitrack recording

Post by losthighway » Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:17 pm

Nick Sevilla wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:05 pm
So, you simply use a direct line of sight to measure the distance between the listening point, and each musician, and use a 100% wet no feedback delay line, to push back each musician to their respective spot in the stage, along with the panning.

Remember the speed of sound, and translate that into milliseconds per foot.
Cool.

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Re: replicating "bleed" in a multitrack recording

Post by A.David.MacKinnon » Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:45 pm

If you can make suggestions for the clients recording stage -
If they've got several stations set up, say an electric guitar, an acoustic, a vocal, whatever, ask them to records one of the unused mics with whatever they're tracking. If I'm tracking someone piece by piece I'll often record the drum overhead along with the electric guitar. Or the vocal mic or whatever sounds good.
Make sure the extra track is labelled well so you can pan it to where that mic is supposed to be in the mix.

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Re: replicating "bleed" in a multitrack recording

Post by joninc » Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:54 pm

lots of interesting ideas here - thank you all for chiming in.

Dave - this stuff is all tracked and sent to me for mix. I don't think they even did the guitars in the same studio as the drums so those (great) ideas unfortunately don't apply here. not even a room mic on the kit ....
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Re: replicating "bleed" in a multitrack recording

Post by A.David.MacKinnon » Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:30 pm

joninc wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:54 pm
lots of interesting ideas here - thank you all for chiming in.

Dave - this stuff is all tracked and sent to me for mix. I don't think they even did the guitars in the same studio as the drums so those (great) ideas unfortunately don't apply here. not even a room mic on the kit ....
A bummer. I've been doing a lot if pandemic mixing too. It's been nice with return clients or ongoing singles projects to make tracking suggestions and see them picked up in the next song I receive.
If you're stuck with what you've got then it's down to delay and reverb. Maybe re-amping in your live room too

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Re: replicating "bleed" in a multitrack recording

Post by digitaldrummer » Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:12 pm

I've used the UAD Ocean Way Studios plugin for this. I just sent a bit of each instrument (and a few select mics from the drum kit) to this, panned appropriately (on a stereo Aux bus) and then slipped a little underneath the whole mix. Fake bleed for sure, but it slightly sounded like a band playing together in one room, but all bleeding into another... so it got what I intended. It's all over this album... https://cosmicsingularity.bandcamp.com/ ... ible-enemy
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Re: replicating "bleed" in a multitrack recording

Post by numberthirty » Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:41 pm

While it is not exactly "Bleed...", you could give something like this a try. In addition to adding some space, it might lend some uniformity if the elements recorded in different places are that big of an issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvktYptRUJA

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Re: replicating "bleed" in a multitrack recording

Post by drumsound » Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:55 am

If you wanted to go with a super involved idea you could set up your room as if a band is there and have a speaker or two that you could easily reposition. Put the speaker where one of the instruments is, and then record the other instruments' s mics. So, put the bass through the speaker (or actually through the bass amp) but record the guitar amps, vocal mic and drum overheads picking up the bass sound. Then do the same with each element.

Full disclosure, I've never tried this.

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Re: replicating "bleed" in a multitrack recording

Post by roscoenyc » Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:47 am

As others have said, half of "bleed" is people playing together as in it sounds so good to have everyone playing together that the bleed doesn't matter.

With that as an accepted truth one way to get a little of that 'same room feeling' is to do that lead vocal last and do it in the control room with the speakers on (not worrying about bleed). Everything you do o that vocal, compression, EQ, effects, will have a little of everything else in it.

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Re: replicating "bleed" in a multitrack recording

Post by Magnetic Services » Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:42 am

If your mixing room is big enough and sounds good, just play a dry mix through your speakers and record with the stereo or multichannel mic setup of your choice (ORTF, X/Y, Ambisonic, etc.). If you have a small mixing room, reamp it on a living room stereo or bring your monitors into some other medium/large room.

If you want to do it all in the box, check out Inspirata: https://www.inspiredacoustics.com/en/pr ... orkstation

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Re: replicating "bleed" in a multitrack recording

Post by Recycled_Brains » Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:07 am

Magnetic Services wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:42 am
If you have a small mixing room, reamp it on a living room stereo or bring your monitors into some other medium/large room.
This could definitely work.

Years ago I did a horn arrangement for a song, but only 2 people to play all the parts. I think it was 3 sax's, 2 trumpet, bari-clarinet... something like that. I tracked them all separately, panned them to where I anticipated they would sound good, then bounced that down, burned it to a CD and then cranked that through my living room stereo with a stereo pair about 15' away. It took a few tries (and CDR's) to get the balance and panning in PT to where it sounded as close as possible to an ensemble when I was recording it back in, but I ended up putting that track into the mix and muting the close mics and it was shockingly convincing. I was lucky to live in an apartment with a large living room with high ceilings that actually sounded pretty damn good.

I bet you could try it with different speakers and get some interesting results.

Obviously you wouldn't be replacing everything, but a little might go a long way.
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Re: replicating "bleed" in a multitrack recording

Post by T-rex » Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:11 am

It's funny, maybe I've been doing this wrong/right all along but my "room" verb aux has always been used for this. I would pick a room appropriate for the band, small to medium tight for an indie rock band say, and then place every instrument into that room a bit, even the bass. Then tuck that under the main mix just enough to make it sound like they all played in the same room at the same time. It's not really bleed per se, but it's trying to simulate that.
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