harsh frequencies? rogue resonances?

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gravitychapters
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harsh frequencies? rogue resonances?

Post by gravitychapters » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:00 pm

I'm mixing a song and getting close to (what I hope to be) the end of the process. Which is about the time I notice: some notes in the bass line really jump out, while some recede to the point of being almost inaudible.

What is this? What did I do wrong? How does one avoid or repair this? How come it's only on certain notes?

I realize this exposes me as a bit of a novice, but so be it; that's what I am. The reason I keep working at it (and asking questions) is to become something more than a novice.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom!

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Re: harsh frequencies? rogue resonances?

Post by The Scum » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:26 pm

First question: was it just played that way? Something in the playing technique that makes some louder than others? Upstrokes vs downstrokes, or fretted vs open strings, etc?

Second question: does it do it on both speakers and headphones? If headphones don't do the same, then you've got some room acoustic issues emphasizing some notes and swallowing others.
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Re: harsh frequencies? rogue resonances?

Post by losthighway » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:34 pm

Already some great advice here:

I find many bass guitars don't come across the same in different registers, not only in terms of tone, but also in gain coming out of the instrument. For example a lot of cheaper Jazz basses with stock pickups disappear when fretting lower notes on the low E, and then cut through the mix higher up the fret board on the other strings (and Peter Hook is born).

Also, mixing bass guitar is just kind of harder to me than a lot of other instruments. It's harder to hear what's going on down there, and it seems the most inconsistently reproduced instrument depending on the system/listening environment.

I find that using compression more heavily, sometimes in parallel, or sometimes even having a distorted track in parallel with a clean one can help the bass stay in place. I tinker with bass eq sometimes longer than other parts of a mix, sometimes cutting the sub frequencies (0-20hz), sometimes cutting some low mids, often low passing the whole thing (down as far as 2k depending on the genre of music and tone of the bass), occasionally boosting (gently) around the fundamentals of some of the main notes when it's anemic (or cutting when it's too big and boomy). It's just a tougher instrument to mix, in my opinion.

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Re: harsh frequencies? rogue resonances?

Post by digitaldrummer » Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:34 pm

compression may help, or if it was a DI bass try re-amping or running through an amp sim - maybe use it in parallel or on it's own. Maybe my imagination but sometimes I feel like when I run a track through one of the UAD bass sims (BA15 for example) it comes out with "amp" or "speaker" compression that the DI does not get. if the room is a problem, then re-amping/micing may or may not help.
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Re: harsh frequencies? rogue resonances?

Post by Magnetic Services » Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:36 pm

gravitychapters wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:00 pm
I realize this exposes me as a bit of a novice, but so be it; that's what I am. The reason I keep working at it (and asking questions) is to become something more than a novice.
There's no shame here, don't worry!

Have you tried a compressor or a dynamic EQ?

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Re: harsh frequencies? rogue resonances?

Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:02 pm

Definitely check on headphones before you go crazy with the compressor. It's entirely possible it's your room...anyone can test this easily, just play pure sine wave tones chromatically starting from like a low B. If you have no/minimal treatment, you will likely hear some notes boom out super loud while others will almost vanish completely.

If it sounds the same on headphones then it's the player, get out the compressor. Don't be shy with it.

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Re: harsh frequencies? rogue resonances?

Post by Recycled_Brains » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:14 pm

Dealing with this exact thing right now (literally).

In my case it's 2 things - poorly set up instrument & very sloppy right hand technique.

I did what I could, including editing together better takes. Lots of compression. Dynamic EQ.

Of course the band wants me to "turn the bass up", but if it ain't there... The last thing I'm trying is sort of re-voicing the EQ a little. Instead of relying on the low frequencies to carry the weight, I looked to the midrange hoping to capture the upper octaves of the fundamentals that are disappearing. About to see if it passes the car test.
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Re: harsh frequencies? rogue resonances?

Post by A.David.MacKinnon » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:31 pm

As others have said, check the room first. My money is on that.
Next eq, compression or just riding the levels on really low level or high level notes. I frequently do that with vocals but sometimes have to do it with bass (usually not so great uprights). Go through and turn all the quiet notes up a few db. Then go through again and turn the loud notes down a few db. Listen and repeat. Doing that first lets the compressor and eq work consistently.

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Re: harsh frequencies? rogue resonances?

Post by mwerden » Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:14 pm

You can also use a compressor as an alternate way of "checking the room," so to speak. Set the comp to fairly high ratio, fast attack/release. Bring the threshold down until the compressor starts grabbing the loud notes. Check to see if the compressor behavior matches what you are hearing - if you hear a loud note jumping out but the compressor doesn't grab you may have found a room resonance. On the flip side if you see the compressor starting to grab something that doesn't sound louder to you in the room you may have found a null.
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Re: harsh frequencies? rogue resonances?

Post by gravitychapters » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:09 pm

Thank you all for the great advice.

Things I've tried so far: compression, EQ, re-amping, distortion (inserted and parallel), and a bit of automation.

The simple suggestion about headphones turned out to be instructive: the part sounds much more even in cans than through my monitors. My room sucks.

The one thing (two things I guess) I've not tried yet is dynamic EQ (and/or multiband compression). Truth is: I'm completely baffled by dynamic EQ. Just can't get my head around it for some reason. I have the FabFilter EQ, so I know I have the gear to pull it off. I just don't have the skills.

How does one use a dynamic EQ to remedy this problem? Do you upwardly expand the problem frequency? If so, why not just regular EQ boost that frequency?


Magnetic Services wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:36 pm
gravitychapters wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:00 pm
I realize this exposes me as a bit of a novice, but so be it; that's what I am. The reason I keep working at it (and asking questions) is to become something more than a novice.
There's no shame here, don't worry!

Have you tried a compressor or a dynamic EQ?

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Re: harsh frequencies? rogue resonances?

Post by gravitychapters » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:10 pm

Let me know how it goes. I'm too afraid to get this mix anywhere near my car at this point. Godspeed!
Recycled_Brains wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:14 pm
Dealing with this exact thing right now (literally).

In my case it's 2 things - poorly set up instrument & very sloppy right hand technique.

I did what I could, including editing together better takes. Lots of compression. Dynamic EQ.

Of course the band wants me to "turn the bass up", but if it ain't there... The last thing I'm trying is sort of re-voicing the EQ a little. Instead of relying on the low frequencies to carry the weight, I looked to the midrange hoping to capture the upper octaves of the fundamentals that are disappearing. About to see if it passes the car test.

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Re: harsh frequencies? rogue resonances?

Post by vvv » Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:00 am

FWIW, I use a lot of FX on bass, and so I run into the described issues at times.

My first approach in the box is to transparently limit 6 or 9db off the peaks, then a high pass-filter, mebbe at 60 or 90Hz, and a narrow boost somewhere between 900 and 1.2kHz - those simple tweaks usually work. (I note I play into a compressor pedal about 75% of the time, and I use a dbx160XT set lightly after my The Brick pre amp, in parallel with a Meek VC1Q, usually (90%) using a mic'd amp (SM7b on a Ampeg BA108), sometimes DI.)

If the above doesn't work, I might dupe the track and high pass it at like 120 or 160 Hz and do the boost thing, mebbe notch a little at 400-450Hz, and bring that back in parallel.

An even simpler tweak that almost always works is to add a bright chorus to the bass, if the chorus sound works with the song.

My theory is the HPF and listed cuts seem to address most of the too-loud notes; the HPF and listed boosts and/or chorus seem to bring clarity to the bass track in general.
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Re: harsh frequencies? rogue resonances?

Post by Recycled_Brains » Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:58 am

gravitychapters wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:10 pm
Let me know how it goes. I'm too afraid to get this mix anywhere near my car at this point. Godspeed!
Recycled_Brains wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:14 pm
Dealing with this exact thing right now (literally).

In my case it's 2 things - poorly set up instrument & very sloppy right hand technique.

I did what I could, including editing together better takes. Lots of compression. Dynamic EQ.

Of course the band wants me to "turn the bass up", but if it ain't there... The last thing I'm trying is sort of re-voicing the EQ a little. Instead of relying on the low frequencies to carry the weight, I looked to the midrange hoping to capture the upper octaves of the fundamentals that are disappearing. About to see if it passes the car test.
It sounds alright. It's a compromise no matter what I do, so I'm just trying not to overthink it at this point. If it were my decision, we'd be re-tracking with simpler bass lines that the player could pull off more accurately, but it's just not that kinda session.
Ryan Slowey
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Re: harsh frequencies? rogue resonances?

Post by Magnetic Services » Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:37 am

gravitychapters wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:09 pm
The one thing (two things I guess) I've not tried yet is dynamic EQ (and/or multiband compression). Truth is: I'm completely baffled by dynamic EQ. Just can't get my head around it for some reason. I have the FabFilter EQ, so I know I have the gear to pull it off. I just don't have the skills.

How does one use a dynamic EQ to remedy this problem? Do you upwardly expand the problem frequency? If so, why not just regular EQ boost that frequency?
Dynamic EQ is a bit like multiband compression, except that you can use it to boost or cut. I usually use it to reduce a range of frequencies only when they poke out, kind of like a very precise de-esser.

In your case, you'd find the notes that are too loud and set the dynamic EQ to activate when those notes are played, reducing the frequency ranges of those notes by a few dB (with attack, delay and threshold controls just like a compressor). If you used a regular EQ, you'd be taking a chunk out of the bass tone even when those notes aren't playing, if that makes sense. You can also use it to boost the quieter notes.

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Re: harsh frequencies? rogue resonances?

Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:43 am

gravitychapters wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:09 pm
How does one use a dynamic EQ to remedy this problem? Do you upwardly expand the problem frequency? If so, why not just regular EQ boost that frequency?
Dynamic eq isn't what you want for this, you just want a regular old compressor. 3 or 4 to 1, medium attack and release, dig in until it all sounds even.

Dynamic eq is for when you want to control just a certain frequency only when it gets too loud. Easy example is a singer who's really sibilant around 5k. You don't want to put a big cut with a regular eq cause that'll ruin the vocal sound. So you use dynamic eq, and just set the threshold so it's sitting there doing nothing most of the time, but when a big old 5k SSSSSSSSSSSSSS comes along it smacks it down, then resumes doing nothing.

You can also use it the other way, to make quiet freqs louder, but (for me anyway) this is pretty rare, 98% of the time I use it to tame problem freqs that jump out.

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