"harsh frequencies"

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gravitychapters
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"harsh frequencies"

Post by gravitychapters » Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:18 am

I've been afraid to ask this one, but here goes.

How does one find "harsh frequencies"?

If I create a big spike in Pro-Q3 and comb it up and down, every single freaking frequency sounds bad. Yet I know there are some I should deliberately notch out to come up with a much better mix.

I've spent so much time putting Soothe in "delta" mode to study what it's doing. Those are, evidently, the harsh frequencies, yes?

I'm sure there's no right/easy answer to this, but hoping someone can help me make better sense of it at least.

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Re: "harsh frequencies"

Post by A.David.MacKinnon » Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:06 am

I think you need to give a bit of context to get any kind of useful answer. Guitars? Vocals? Overheads? The whole mx?

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Re: "harsh frequencies"

Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:21 am

IME harsh freqs are generally between 2-4k. If something really hurts, chances are it's somewhere in there and probably right around 2.7-3.1k, the hurtiest of the hurt range.

Above that is the sibilant range, which can also be painful. S's and ch's can be super painful around 5-7k, or sometimes it's higher, between 8-11k.

Too much of the 5-10k range in general can make things really crispy and unpleasant.

I've never used the 'boost a freq and comb it around' method for the reason you state, it makes everything bad. Generally I just guess at where the problem is, put a cut/dynamic eq/desser/whatever there and evaluate. If it's better I guessed right, if not, keep trying.

DMG Equilibrium has this feature, I'm guessing Pro Q probably does too: If I right click on a a freq band, it'll solo that band, this can be useful sometimes. You might find this more helpful than boosting a freq, it's considerably less obnoxious on the ears. TBH I only ever use this when trying to zoom in for problematic low mids, but could be useful for higher freqs too.

The short answer is just practice, eventually you'll just kind of know where the problems are as soon as you hear them.

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Re: "harsh frequencies"

Post by drumsound » Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:07 am

Hey, look at this... The 57 frequency plot corresponds well with MSE's post. Who'd a thunk?
Image

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Re: "harsh frequencies"

Post by digitaldrummer » Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:23 pm

I'll dare say that "harsh frequencies" is totally subjective and "in the ear of the beholder"...

I don't think everyone hears sound the exact same way. especially if you've played in a band for any length of time. but even before that. some people hate cymbals, some people love em. some people hate distortion... so what sounds harsh to one, may not to another.
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Re: "harsh frequencies"

Post by vvv » Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:42 pm

Which, perhaps not obviously enuff for me, raises the point that it's often not "harsh frequencies", but rather, distortion ....
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Re: "harsh frequencies"

Post by joninc » Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:17 pm

gravitychapters wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:18 am
I've been afraid to ask this one, but here goes.

How does one find "harsh frequencies"?

If I create a big spike in Pro-Q3 and comb it up and down, every single freaking frequency sounds bad. Yet I know there are some I should deliberately notch out to come up with a much better mix.

I've spent so much time putting Soothe in "delta" mode to study what it's doing. Those are, evidently, the harsh frequencies, yes?

I'm sure there's no right/easy answer to this, but hoping someone can help me make better sense of it at least.
lots of good points so far - I don't think this is something that you "always" have to do on every mix.... It's taking me years and years of practice (ear training) to start having a clue what zone is the offending one when something doesn't sound as smooth as I would like.

It's also partly that when something isn't too brash or bright/pokey then it can be louder in the mix. We naturally turn things down that hurt our ears - so pay attention to which elements those are... They can be electric guitars - cymbals - spitty vocals - brash horns - bashy hi hats ... or anything else with that upper midrange to treble content.

Another key thing is to have a good balance in the low end, if a mix is thin sounding overall then all the top end stuff sounds that much harsher. When a song has a nice round bottom to it then it naturally sounds a little sweeter to listen to.
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Re: "harsh frequencies"

Post by vernier » Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:27 pm

gravitychapters wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:18 am
I've been afraid to ask this one, but here goes.

How does one find "harsh frequencies"?

If I create a big spike in Pro-Q3 and comb it up and down, every single freaking frequency sounds bad. Yet I know there are some I should deliberately notch out to come up with a much better mix.

I've spent so much time putting Soothe in "delta" mode to study what it's doing. Those are, evidently, the harsh frequencies, yes?

I'm sure there's no right/easy answer to this, but hoping someone can help me make better sense of it at least.
Use cut rather than boost and experiment to find if you're able to make an improvement. A little goes a long way.

That said, some of my mixes have ear slitting frequencies :shock:

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Re: "harsh frequencies"

Post by gravitychapters » Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:58 pm

I guess all of the above.

I'd been working on a mix for a long time. Brought it out to my car and realized it's almost unlistenable because of super harsh stuff around 10K.

On another mix, I was almost clipping the master bus even though the mix wasn't all that loud. Turns out I had an insane build up of low-mid stuff.

I guess it's not a very specific question. Just a concept I've been wrestling with.
A.David.MacKinnon wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:06 am
I think you need to give a bit of context to get any kind of useful answer. Guitars? Vocals? Overheads? The whole mx?

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Re: "harsh frequencies"

Post by Nick Sevilla » Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:46 am

Not sure if anyone has mentioned harmonics / distortion etc.

https://producerhive.com/ask-the-hive/o ... istortion/
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Re: "harsh frequencies"

Post by A.David.MacKinnon » Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:33 am

A frequency analyzer can be helpful. I usually have one on my master bus and refer to it from time to time. I don't use it to make mix decisions but it can be really helpful to quickly locate problem areas.

Also, if things sound drastically different in the car than they do on your monitors it points to issues in the mix room. If there are acoustic issues in the room you may not be accurately hearing what's going on in the mix. Every system sounds different but it shouldn't be night and day.

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Re: "harsh frequencies"

Post by gravitychapters » Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:56 am

My room sucks. No way around it. Every time I get out to my car, it's anyone's guess on how things will sound. Especially the balance of low end stuff.

The frequency analyzer has been helping me a lot. I've also been using a plug-in to compare my frequency picture to that of a reference track.

Thanks for all the info, everyone. It wasn't a very well articulate question, but your responses are helpful.
A.David.MacKinnon wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:33 am
A frequency analyzer can be helpful. I usually have one on my master bus and refer to it from time to time. I don't use it to make mix decisions but it can be really helpful to quickly locate problem areas.

Also, if things sound drastically different in the car than they do on your monitors it points to issues in the mix room. If there are acoustic issues in the room you may not be accurately hearing what's going on in the mix. Every system sounds different but it shouldn't be night and day.

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Re: "harsh frequencies"

Post by Recycled_Brains » Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:06 am

It's definitely ear-dependent. I'm highly sensitive to 2k, 4k for example. Likely from years of standing in front of a Marshall full stack on stage (even with earplugs).

I will do a narrow bandwidth cut and comb through the 2-11k region on cymbals a lot and see if at any point I hear an improvement (99% of the time, I do).

On guitars, I may do the same, but much less heavy handedly. Vocals it's usually 1.5 area that sounds harsh to me for whatever reason.

It's certainly a useful technique, but yea, extreme boosts of anything sounds like shit, so it's kinda hard to tell if you're actually helping once you cut those spots.

I think it's also VERY important to let your ears rest for a few minutes after you do those scans, because it definitely will trick your ears into thinking something sounds worse than it actually is.
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digitaldrummer
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Re: "harsh frequencies"

Post by digitaldrummer » Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:51 am

also, as much as we all like the nostalgia of listening in the car, most cars (and trucks, suvs, etc.) suck too! some of the new vehicles use the speakers/subwoofers to "cancel" out engine and road noise. imagine what that is doing to your low end? or the high end? or what about when your tires suck (or you are in that giant 4x4) and there is a lot of road noise? Just don't rely on your car as the only other place to listen to a mix... 8)

too many experiences like this...

client: I can't hear the kick drum
me: ok, what are you listening on?
client: in the car, when I'm driving 70mph on the highway with my windows open
me: :roll:
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Re: "harsh frequencies"

Post by Colorblind » Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:51 pm

gravitychapters wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:56 am
My room sucks. No way around it. Every time I get out to my car, it's anyone's guess on how things will sound. Especially the balance of low end stuff.
My room is treated, but far from ideal. There’s a sizeable dip around 100Hz, and some other anomalies due to the dimensions and shape of the room. Mixes done in that room have always translated horribly in the car and on other systems. I’ve learned to compensate for some of those anomalies over the years, which has helped, but there is still a fair bit of guesswork going on.

An acquaintance recommended Sonarworks to me a couple years ago, and although I was pretty skeptical of room/speaker correction software, I decided to give it a whirl and I have to say it has improved my mixes tremendously. Mixes translate far better from system to system, and I’m just mixing with way more confidence now as a result. Might not be for everybody, but if your room’s a mess, it can certainly help.

As far as harsh frequencies, for me it’s 2.39khz. Kind of specific, but that’s the ice pick frequency for me, primarily on electric guitars, and sometimes vocals and other instruments. I hear it on speakers and headphones, which rules out my control room being the issue. Could just be my ears, but I find myself notching out that frequency way more often than I used to.

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