Another dreaded clocking thread

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Another dreaded clocking thread

Post by Theo_Karon » Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:47 am

Hey all!

I have a very practical question that I’m hoping one of y’all can offer some guidance on.

Sidestepping the whole nightmare external clocking vortex (to keep it brief, yes I have heard digi converters sound markedly better when clocked externally but this is a known design flaw, in general the consensus seems to be that well-designed converters cannot be made more accurate in the time domain by external clocking, practically speaking I try do do whatever sounds best to me while cutting the snake oil a wide berth.)

My lack of deep technical knowledge is also going to become evident here, so if any of my assumptions are wrong, I’m eager to know!

Here’s my situation: for many years I’ve used an antelope Orion 32 as my main AD/DA. A few years back I added a two channel Burl ADC for mixdown capture, the occasional vocal, etc. Connected to the Orion via S/PDIF and coming into PT via the Orion routing matrix. So, already, one unit needs to act as the master clock. Tried it both ways and felt that the burl sounded slightly better clocked internally, but still plenty great clocked to the Orion, while the Orion seemed to suffer considerably when clocked to the Burl. So, simple enough - Orion remains the master clock. (Is this because it’s the ‘last’ digital stage thus the only one the computer sees? Does that have anything to do with anything?)

Well, I just got a mytek Brooklyn two channel DAC that a friend who was upgrading his mastering setup sold me for a stupidly low price. Having wanted a monitoring upgrade for some time, this was a no-brainer; it can also connect to the Orion via S/PDIF, which keeps everything quite seamless on the computer side. But! Now I have three different sets of converters all talking to each other, all of which would prefer to clock internally, but which I must choose one of as the master clock. This would seem to strain the limits of any testing I could reasonably hope to do here, as there are a lot of variables (3 clock choices plus record & playback accuracy to account for - for instance, if a certain configuration hurts the mytek acceptably / within the range where it’s still an improvement over the Orion DAC, but is better for the Orion DAC carrying the mix stems & the Burl for capture, I’d rather do that as that’s what’s actually getting printed, even if what I’m hearing takes a slight hit.)

Is there any kind of best practice here? My gut says just clock everything to the Orion since that has the most I/O going and is also the primary interface, but I’m not sure what factors are truly at play there? Every manufacturer of course claims that their clock is the best and will improve every other unit if used as the master clock for the system, so that’s no help!

Thanks all!!

Theo
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Re: Another dreaded clocking thread

Post by digitaldrummer » Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:19 pm

the only way you will ever figure this out is to try recording/mixing/bouncing, etc. with every different setting and then convince yourself you like one better than the other (sometimes I really think that's what happens...). of course, you then may decide that you like it one way for recording and another way for mixing and another way for.... well you get the picture. Talk to you again in 20 years!

Since all of those are pretty good converters and clocks, I'd guess you are probably splitting hairs (unless you do all of the tests and can really hear a significant difference - and if you can, great, you have the answer now). If not, then I'd set it up, make sure it works and get down to recording/mixing/mastering or whatever you are doing.

Obviously I'd never make it over on the GS forum. :twisted:

oh, and this may be obvious, but do make sure that when you set one to be the master clock, the others are in slave mode - everything needs to use the same clock or pop pop click!
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Re: Another dreaded clocking thread

Post by Nick Sevilla » Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:49 pm

Questions:

As to your two smaller units, the Burl and the Mytek, did you buy them BECAUSE there is something of the Orion that you dislike, as far as conversion to digital is concerned?

Or is this just a case of G.A.S., where you saw something you wanted and bought it?

What did the Burl bring to your ecosystem that the Orion could NOT do? Was it an essential buy which allowed you to do something your previously could not only with the Orion?

The Mytek is a buddy buy, you stated you bought it only because it was cheap. Is it objectively BETTER than either the Orion or the Burl? When you use it by itself, is the conversion better IN YOUR OPINION?

Clocking is not the issue here. All three units are really good at conversion no matter who is master. The issue here (IMHO) is whether or not you really NEED these in your system, or you are just buying because you think they are better, or some other intangible thing, unrelated to your actual studio need.
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Re: Another dreaded clocking thread

Post by The Scum » Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:17 pm

... the Orion seemed to suffer considerably when clocked to the Burl.
Is something misconfigured in that case? Or just broken? I'd expect similar results with the clocking running in either direction.

What was the mode of suffering experienced? Or was it a subjective analysis/confirmation bias at work?

Anything designed sensibly in the last 20 or so years avoids the set of problems that plagued the generation of stuff that had truly bad clocking (first gen ADATs, DAT machines, PC sound cards, etc). Once the problem was understood & exposed, there were a series of papers published by the AES, and revised designs popped up quickly (2nd gen ADATs, Panasonic sv3800)...and people realized they could make a buck by selling just the clock, so standalone clocks popped up.

The truly objective way to do this would be to use lab equipment to measure the stability of each clock, then connect devices to what appears to be the best block, and validate that the combination is functioning correctly. Then feed the system sine waves, and use an FFT to look for the noise & sidebands jitter would cause...

Also, how do you use the Mytek and Burl at the same time? Doesn't the Orion only have one SPDIF port?
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Re: Another dreaded clocking thread

Post by Theo_Karon » Mon Aug 23, 2021 6:43 pm

Thanks all!

Digitaldrummer, that was pretty much what I feared - kind of hoping someone with some deep tech knowledge on the convertor side of things would come along with a reason why one way was decidedly better than another. The frustrating thing here is that it's often only after many hours or even days of working with a certain configuration that its advantages and limitations start to become apparent, which makes A/B testing all the more useless. And then one is left with a choice between different subjective impressions, each recalled more as some sort of gestalt than anything resembling a table, or a chart... hardly a productive way to spend one's finite hours as a sentient sack of ambulatory meat riddled with cognitive biases! But it's not much fun to be halfway through mixing a record and realize that one simple change will make the whole thing sound a little better. Even if it's like a 1% difference - with that kind of context and continuity, it becomes noticeable in a way that's impossible to ignore!

And while I'm not on forums altogether that much, there's a reason why I'm here, not at GS 8)

The Scum, the degree of the difference was surprising to me, too. This one was actually not subtle, which fortunately made the decision easy - the top end was just wrong all of a sudden, narrower, waaaay less detailed, but if there was something misconfigured it didn't happen in the other direction. Operator error is always a distinct possibility here, but with the obverse configuration sounding very good indeed, I didn't feel the need to investigate further. It's always a fine balance - I'm interested in creating the best environment I can in which to do my work, so long as the ratio of time spent still skews heavily in favor of the work itself :wink: Often that means asking questions rather than taking measurements.

I also believe that there's room here to ascribe some degree of validity to subjective impressions of difference beyond what the measurements indicate should be apparent, without verging into snake oil or audio mysticism. For instance, right near the end of my time doing live sound, I was helping set up a new venue around a Yamaha M7CL. We weren't loving the way it sounded, and tried clocking it to an apogee big ben and A/Bing program run into two desk channels and out the master to get the full loop - this was, again, a case of two perfectly good clocks that should have sounded at the very least quite similar, but did not. Everyone in the room heard the difference clearly (we blind tested, just for fun) and preferred the big ben. It wasn't a squint-and-convince-yourself kind of difference; it was like, oh yeah, definitely that one. This was on an already well-tuned, top of the line Meyer system in a great sounding venue; I'm sure it would have been less apparent under different circumstances, and thus would not have mattered in any real way, but in this instance it was apparent and therefore did matter!

Nick, I have no idea, man. I'm just out here like a ghost ship in a storm.

But to tell you the truth, I'm a little stung - hurt, even! While we can certainly picture me as a hungry, angry baby, wandering the luminous corridors of online commerce forever grasping at pieces of high-end kit which, in the depths of my deranged ignorance, I (wrongly) imagine will finally unlock that door behind which the GOOD MIXES abide; while such a depiction of me might amuse us both, might even add a little levity to hours that otherwise will be spent in contemplation of the twilight of our poor species, of death's grim finality, onrushing - maybe there's another possibility here?

Cheers,

Theo
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Re: Another dreaded clocking thread

Post by Nick Sevilla » Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:18 pm

Theo_Karon wrote:
Mon Aug 23, 2021 6:43 pm
Thanks all!

Nick, I have no idea, man. I'm just out here like a ghost ship in a storm.

But to tell you the truth, I'm a little stung - hurt, even! While we can certainly picture me as a hungry, angry baby, wandering the luminous corridors of online commerce forever grasping at pieces of high-end kit which, in the depths of my deranged ignorance, I (wrongly) imagine will finally unlock that door behind which the GOOD MIXES abide; while such a depiction of me might amuse us both, might even add a little levity to hours that otherwise will be spent in contemplation of the twilight of our poor species, of death's grim finality, onrushing - maybe there's another possibility here?

Cheers,

Theo
No problem Theo.

If you are looking for Good Mixes (nah, GREAT mixes!) then that just takes practice, and learning how to blend individual instruments together into a Stereo pair of channels. Took me a good five years before being proud of anything I have mixed.

How I got there was a combination of learning from working with other people, from online stuff, especially here, and a few books as well, to grasp the basics.

Things like MASKING, where one instruments frequency ranges messes with another one. things like using AUTOMATION, which always is a time and lifesaver. These days in a modern DAW you can automate anything. From switching between two EQ settings for one lead vocal, to whatever you need to keep the mix going good.

The answer to a Great Mix is NEVER the equipment. It is ALWAYS the engineer. And one that knows his gear inside and out, no matter how cheap or old it may be. I have a friend who is a pro guitar session player, and he is insanely good at recording things. Mixing his songs was super easy, as he already had the sounds he was looking for, for every instrument. That is key.

Just one example? Alanis Morrissete's Jagged Little Pill. Recorded on ADATS and using Digidesign 888s, both systems which no one liked. But, it was Greg Ladanyi at the helm, and he fucking killed it. Sad he passed away a few years ago. but if you want to learn anything, go listen to that record a few times, in a row, loop the whole damn thing. Genius.
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Re: Another dreaded clocking thread

Post by digitaldrummer » Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:06 am

I must admit I had some thoughts along the same line as Nick as to why the Orion32 was not working for you? I had one of those and it was amazing really. the only reason I don't still have it is that I did not like the console app (this was a few years ago on the original Orion 32) and I wanted the UAD plugins and low-latency capabilities (during recording) which Antelope did not have yet either (although they have something similar now).

And maybe if you were doing some kind of analog summing during mixdown and wanted the Burl or Mytek exclusively for that, then I could see even setting up a 2nd computer with one of those attached and going analog from one system to the other... then each interface can use its own internal clock (which these days is usually the ideal scenario). just an idea.
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Re: Another dreaded clocking thread

Post by Theo_Karon » Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:34 am

Yeah, the two-computer solution may be the thing longer term. I've thought about it - will have to see how this round goes. I suppose there's a certain extra fussiness factor implied by that move - not necessarily an unwelcome one, but, as they say, the first step is admitting that you have a problem :alien:

As far as all the rest - I don't really know how to respond. Nick, my sarcasm seems to have sailed right over without so much as ruffling your hair, judging by your response, for which I (guardedly) apologize - but, more broadly, are we really so skeptical here at the notion of valid distinctions between merely very good vs great equipment in a studio context? Is the mere mention of high-end conversion sufficient impetus for the assumption that I must have been in some way misled by my impulses here, or is it the fact that I don't pretend to have any deep knowledge of convertor design and clocking? I certainly have opinions about how they sound! One must simply assume certain disclaimers - of course the tools are nothing without a competent craftsman, etc etc - but past a certain point, these fractional improvements really do become quite significant (as I'm sure you all know - again, why the friction?)

It feels sort of weird to be defending this position against what strike me as a set of fairly bizarre and unwarranted assumptions. I don't want to veer into any sort of aggrandizement here, but the simple truth is that I work on records day in and day out, and over the years have tracked and mixed hundreds of them at many dozens of studios (as have many others here!), on lots of different equipment. That's my context. While I don't know much about the low-level functional mechanics of digital audio - nor do I really care to, unless it starts to limit my ability to do my work in some way - I certainly do know what I'm hearing and why I've chosen these particular tools. Again, it feels totally bizarre to find myself defending the assertion that excellent tools matter, here of all places, and it seems this thread is quickly becoming some sort of referendum on... I'm not sure what? Maybe in an attempt to be humble my first post ended up reading like 'haha I'm an idiot, I bought a bunch of expensive shit and I don't know what it does, how do I plug this stuff in?'

I should hope there's no shame in admitting that one's expertise doesn't extend to every corner of one's field, but, there it is. I also have approximately zero interest in the sort of headfirst rectal spelunking that so often becomes the focus of these discussions, which is, once again, why I'm posting here and not elsewhere! I could answer some of your specific questions about my decisions (short version: the Burl makes my life easier, and I'm hoping the same will be true of the Mytek), but that would be in no way germane to my initial query while also tending only to further aggrivate the navel-gazing impulse that seems to be at issue here.

Cheers,

Theo
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Re: Another dreaded clocking thread

Post by digitaldrummer » Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:12 pm

yeah, I hope it doesn't feel like an attack or having to defend your position. I'm actually curious how you use it, what led you to add the other pieces (because like I said when I had an Orion I thought it sounded great but maybe I had not yet reached nirvana...).

I have an Apollo 16, I know it's not the greatest thing ever, but its one of the best I've ever owned and its pretty damn respectable. I've always wondered about the AES/EBU I/O and what else I might be able to do with it... one thought was to add one of those API dual preamps with the digital connection, or maybe a DAC for headphones, mixdown, etc? or maybe not. I try not to solve a problem that I don't actually have. :D
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Re: Another dreaded clocking thread

Post by Theo_Karon » Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:51 pm

Hey, no problem - I'm happy to advocate for any position I hold, but the manner in which it came up seemed kind of odd - I'm sure you can understand.

The Orion does sound great! I would have zero hesitation about tracking and mixing entire records with only that interface (and did exactly that for many years!)

The moment of reckoning for me was when after inquiring about two different, unrelated records I had mixed, both of which came in already sounding amazing - both turned out to have been tracked through Burl convertors. I tried one out and loved it. It makes me not miss mixing down to tape. Maybe a good comparison is like a vintage Neve mic pre vs a Sytek MPX4 or something? Like, the Sytek is excellent and linear and clean, and will do everything you need it to do, but the Neve sounds nice.

In a way I am hoping the reverse will be true of the Mytek; I have never done a side-by-side comparison with the Orion, but I have worked in rooms with really great DAC in front of the monitors (Mytek, Lavry, Prism, Crane Song etc) and felt that there was more detail and transparency than I was able to get in my room even after meticulously upgrading every other link in the chain (power amp, speakers, the room itself, etc.) Even if it's a 5% difference, when that translates to 5% easier decisions throughout the process, the cumulative benefit is enormous and well worth the one-time cost.

In both cases, I had been pushing up against the limitations of my current equipment for so long that even a little change could make a big difference. While it remains to be seen if this will be true of the Mytek, I can definitely get back what I paid for it (or more -) so there's very little risk there. I had been considering a Crane Song Avocet, but had also heard the Mytek before and thought it sounded fantastic - so when I got the chance to pick one up for a steal I jumped on it. It also has an excellent phono preamp, which is a nice bonus.

In both of these cases (if the Mytek amounts to the improvement I hope it will, at least!), I'm finishing mixes a little faster, the mixes are a little better, and so in addition to making the process more enjoyable these pieces will quite literally pay for themselves (as all good tools should!)

Now, I just wish there were some definitive best practice here master clock wise! Alas, as you said, it would seem that some self-convincing is in order.
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Re: Another dreaded clocking thread

Post by mwerden » Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:36 pm

Theo_Karon wrote:
Mon Aug 23, 2021 6:43 pm
it's often only after many hours or even days of working with a certain configuration that its advantages and limitations start to become apparent
Totally get it. This is especially true when stuff is in your monitoring chain. An easy way around in this particular case is run shit through the converters a bunch of times. Easier to hear a 10th generation A/B vs a 1st gen sometimes. Not sciencey but can help steer your ears in the right direction, but watch for level changes and confirmation bias. Can also reveal if there are any real problems, modern converters should still sound pretty decent after 10 times through, but if all your high end starts going super swirly you might have something that's broken in a subtle way.

Nick - I totally get the idea behind the "it's the ears not the gears" thing, but there's seriously a reason it's a good idea to recap an old power supply. Just sayin.
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