How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

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digitaldrummer
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How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by digitaldrummer » Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:27 pm

I record some bands that come in and track "live". typically they are pretty well rehearsed and I get 2-3 takes of each song, or whatever it takes until the band feels pretty good. Sometimes they might do one take (that also depends on the budget and how many songs they are trying to squeeze into that budget...). then maybe we re-cut vocals and add a few overdubs (or not).

Ultimately I always "fix" things - sometimes a bad note. or maybe just a flubbed note (bad execution or a drop out/missed note), or the drummer hit a rim, etc. If I have multiple takes, then it can be pretty simple to bring bits from another take to patch up these things (and I've gotten pretty good at it). Sometimes (but rarely) I'll tune vocals if I have to (but that is usually after overdubs - the live vocals tend to have too much bleed to be able to tune them).

so, the band comes in and thinks they accomplished a masterpiece album for hundreds (while stupid old Steely Dan spent millions... :lol:). but I wonder if keeping too much of that "behind the curtain" causes a band to be unappreciative of the "magic" that goes on in mixing? On some projects I think there is more exposed - even in overdubs we can do more takes until it's perfect, but again within budget... or sometimes they hear something that they want fixed. I don't believe in shaming a client, so I usually just fix things and move on (and hopefully there is no question about the time being billed as mixing/editing).

anyway, just wondering how the rest of you feel?
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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by Magnetic Services » Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:44 pm

I used to do basically what you just described all the time. The important part is to get a good take and a few backup takes, then fixing small things as needed is easy.

As you listen back with the band/artist to pick the good takes, make notes of things you can easily fix (they might be surprised that something they thought ruined a take is actually easy to fix). That will help them see the work you're doing behind the curtain. Or if they're purists, just don't tell them and make sure your rate includes time for fixing :D

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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by A.David.MacKinnon » Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:21 pm

I'm much the same as magnetic services. I always want a few takes. The band will pick the best take and then we'll identify all the problems. I'll usually fix the problems by editing full takes. That way no one ever has to punch in and we maintain the feel and bleed from the live takes.
If we don't have what we need to make the fixes I'll ask for another take.
This stuff happens pretty fast and is usually out of the way before we move on to the next tune.

Sometime it still feels like heroic efforts but at the end of the day the band played everything. We just cherry picked the best parts.

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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by Nick Sevilla » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:20 pm

There are very few clients that I can just edit something, and we just agree it is the right thing to do. Usually those things are glaringly obvious.

I do not normally edit stuff in secret. That only seeds distrust.
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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by A.David.MacKinnon » Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:17 am

As an addition to my previous post I should also say while the vast majority of my fixes are done in full view of the artist I will and often do make small fixes when I get to the mix stage and I'm by myself. Almost all of those are little "house keeping" type of things. Flying in a missed hit or the odd bum note, sliding backing vocals around so they sit a bit better (provided they were intended to be). None of it is such a big deal as to make me feel like the band needs to be consulted and I'll happily disclose if asked (and reverse any changes if there are objections). It always well within the intention of the track.
I won't tune or time align without talking to the band or being asked beforehand. I hate that approach anyway and am happy to not do it.
I should also say that while I do the vast majority of my fixes by editing full tracks I don't use a click track unless the artist asks for it. There's always a tempo reference at the top of each take and then it gets muted. If a song has a bit of movement in the tempo it usually happens the same way in the same places.

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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by digitaldrummer » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:49 am

Nick Sevilla wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:20 pm
I do not normally edit stuff in secret. That only seeds distrust.
that's most certainly not what I'm talking about. As other folks have said, this is usually minor cleanup, flubbed notes, etc and all in the spirit of making it sound fantastic (near perfect) vs just "that was great". for a major issue we always run the song again until it's 99% perfect or at least it feels good.

I have also had situations where we had 2 good tracks and I could not get the band to chose one so I chose one, or in some cases, I might splice half of one song with another. The band always gets to listen and approve of every mix/edit or whatever the changes are, but if nobody else is able to make decisions, sometimes you have to give them a push in the right direction (even if they don't call me "producer").
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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by digitaldrummer » Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:15 am

so one of the things that prompted me to post the above question, was that I was recently informed by a client that they wanted all the raw tracks to take them to another studio. sure no problem. But one of the reasons given was they were surprised at the number of hours I had spent "mixing" so far and apparently it did not sound like a finished record yet. I looked at the number of hours they had paid me for, which included tracking, selecting best takes (with their input), minor edits and clean-up, a couple songs where I spliced 2 halves, additional punch-ins and overdubs including vocal harmonies, sorting through those vocals and comping the best, assembling some mixes - you know the drill. Anyway, in the end, this averaged to 2 hours per song paid for so far, and i let them know that but then left it at that. oh, and my rates are pretty cheap comparatively.

they had recorded 13 songs btw. some had multiple takes, some did not. the original plan was to record 5 or 6 songs. They paid me for 27 hours total and 10 of those were tracking (the whole band or overdubs). I feel it's unreasonable to expect 13 songs to be completed in this amount of time (and although this client did not reference Steely Dan specifically, you know what I mean...). I know they will either have to spend a lot more time and money to get what they want, or they will end up finishing 3 or 4 songs, or even more likely, it will never get finished.

So that's a longer version of why I'm asking should I be more transparent? But I also don't ever feel like I am not being transparent. I think it's more that this client just has a ridiculous expectation for what they are paying. And maybe it's my fault for not insisting that they tell me what their budget is. I could have said "that only covers 4 songs" or whatever. And we did talk about those things initially. but you know how people get excited and caught up in it and then want Sergeant Pepper.
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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by A.David.MacKinnon » Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:36 am

Expectations and budgets are always hard to manage. The best defense is having a discussion about it up front. If it's possible to have them lay out what they want to spend and what they want to do you can often suggest the best options or if the two don't line up explain why and what they can expect to get for what they have to spend. Sometimes it's impossible to get reliable details.
Now that I've been making records for long enough to know I can fairly accurately estimate how long things will take depending on our working method. For example, I know that If a band is well rehearsed and can get good takes that I can get 10-12 songs done in three days. That can often include overdubs as well provided that there aren't a million things to add and the parts are worked out in advance. I can generally estimate mixing at three hours a song for a 3-4 min song with 24ish tracks. If you have 60 tracks it'll take longer. If your songs are all 10 minutes long it'll take longer, etc, etc, etc.
If the client still thinks that's unreasonable after you explain it all then let them try their luck somewhere else. Lots of times the client will go somewhere else and come back with a better understanding of how much time and money it takes to make a record. There are always people that will work for less or nothing but you get what you pay for. There's no point in trying to compete with someone willing to work for free.

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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by drumsound » Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:05 am

Keeper takes are usually decided collectively. I almost always comp vocals with the singer at the moment, unless I'm asked to make the choices because the singer or band is having a hard time deciding, or just isn't interested in that. Same thing with solos. If there is an edit requested, it's done with them there to hear if the idea is actually good. That's usually things like someone liked the bridge of take two, but the rest of take 3, which are made to the basics. I make the edit and the artist and I discuss if it works, and we go from there.

Little fix things often happen when I'm mixing because something that didn't get noticed or seem like that big a deal becomes so. If it's something that was brought up, I mention it when I email the first mix. I'll say "I did decide to move that bass note we talked about" or something like that. If it wasn't something that came up during tracking I might not mention it. Sometimes I just plain forget to mention those little things because I did them so early on in the mix day that I forgot I did them. But if it was something they wanted, I usually bring it up.

I don't think the client needs to know about every little thing, like tightening up a few notes, or maybe editing a phrase that was a little wonky. Just like I don't tell them what EQ is where, or what effects are happening. I just want them to listen to the mix and decide if they like it, or want revisions.

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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by Nick Sevilla » Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:44 pm

digitaldrummer wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:15 am
But one of the reasons given was they were surprised at the number of hours I had spent "mixing" so far and apparently it did not sound like a finished record yet
And:
but if nobody else is able to make decisions, sometimes you have to give them a push in the right direction (even if they don't call me "producer").
Well that is expectation vs. reality. So sorry you are in the middle of this difficult situation. I learned very early in my career to FORCE artists to make a decision. It is their product after all, and they are in charge of the final editing, takes, et al. Not me. Not as an engineer. That mentality has both saved my ass and made me lifelong friends along my career.

In my limited experience (25 years) this is always best dealt with before anything happens. Since this already is a done deal, as it were, that does not apply.

My billing since becoming an indie engineer is this:

ONE hourly rate for recording and editing. Any of this work has to be totally above board and approved by the client. Sure, you might find a flub no one heard here and there, and it might be ok to fix. In my experience though, sometimes the artist LIKES those flubs. So proceed with caution... :^:

ONE flat rate per song mix. This mixing does not include ANY editing whatsoever. Ever. If the artist and I find that the recording they made
(I am not the recording engineer for this case) needs Editing, then I refer them to my hourly rate, and we figure out approximately how long the project needs as far as editing, create a budget for that, and execute, then go onto the mixing process, independently and after Editing has been done.

Usually, if I am mixing and there is zero editing involved, I can take anywhere from 6-12 hours per one song. Since this is a flat rate though, it is incumbent upon me to work fast and yet be able to deliver what is expected.

I hope this helps, and that you end up still being friends with these clients.

Cheers!
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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by vvv » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:03 pm

FWIW, I do a lot of hourly billing, as well as flat rate in my (non-musical) profession.

It is absolutely key to be transparent, always, in the hourly stuff.

Seldom does the client appreciate the possibility of going past their typically too-low, pre-conceived budget - the likelihood, even - and when that results from their inefficiencies, mistakes, changes, etc., you need to be able to point that out to be sure you get paid, and to assist in keeping a good relationship.

There is a little more flexibility with flat rates, IME, because hopefully the flat-rate is based on what I want to do the job right in the first place, accounting for the (hopefully limited) variables up front.
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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by vernier » Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:09 pm

As for fixing repairing replacing ...only the engineer knows.

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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by roscoenyc » Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:23 am

It's not secret if you let 'em know.

I really like to protect the performances and the bands I work with get the point about how much personality comes from that basic track they cut together. If I've got to fix a few things to keep those performances I will. I usually demonstrate that for them at the studio and they get it. I do a lot of edits and tweaking at home by myself, which invariably saves the project money. I do let the artist know what I've done.

During the pandemic, because getting together has been more difficult, there have been a few interesting fixes that I had not done before including singing a line or two, even on a lead vocal, to get a syllable or a word that I couldn't tune, or where the artist sang the wrong word and I couldn't find it anywhere. As with most fixes I'll try to make the fix as minimal as possible. I'll usually let them hear it a few times before revealing what I had to do. Everybody's been happy with it.

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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by Recycled_Brains » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:53 am

I do 99% of it in real time with the band during tracking. Usually it's splicing parts of one take with parts of another. I do it quick, play it back, band approves or doesn't. If it doesn't work, I tell them to do another take, often only the section in question. If the conversation about the error is taking longer than doing another take, I say "if we're talking about it this much, it warrants another try."

When little things get noticed I will typically first advocate to copy/paste or nudge something on the spot if possible.

The stuff you miss during tracking that pokes out in the mix.... fix it as soon as you notice it and move on. Half the time I forget about it by the time the song is done, which is the point right? They're paying me to hear those things and know how to deal with it efficiently. If I feel like an "error" is a more subjective thing, I'll a/b it with them and let them decide.

If the amount of edits you're doing actually impacts, or will impact the band's budget significantly, you should tell them that it will cost more than they might have anticipated if they want it perfect. That gives them the agency to say "fuck it, it's good enough", or "we can afford it".
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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by markjazzbassist » Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:06 am

i realize i might be in the minority here but if i'm going to a studio i don't want anyone messing with my stuff unless i approve. there is no such thing as "fixing" in my world. art is art, it is flawed just as humanity is. the reason i don't listen to pop music is because it is "fixed" and by that i also mean another defination of that word, neutered. no thanks. keep the mistakes or well do another take. most of my favorite parts of songs are the solo that started then stopped or the amp buzzing or stevie wonder's clavinet's battery dying and the whole performance is fuzz clavinet. i don't like sterile music.

again YMMV, my own .02, hope i don't offend

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