How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by Recycled_Brains » Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:22 pm

markjazzbassist wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:06 am
i realize i might be in the minority here but if i'm going to a studio i don't want anyone messing with my stuff unless i approve. there is no such thing as "fixing" in my world. art is art, it is flawed just as humanity is. the reason i don't listen to pop music is because it is "fixed" and by that i also mean another defination of that word, neutered. no thanks. keep the mistakes or well do another take. most of my favorite parts of songs are the solo that started then stopped or the amp buzzing or stevie wonder's clavinet's battery dying and the whole performance is fuzz clavinet. i don't like sterile music.

again YMMV, my own .02, hope i don't offend
You would explain that to the engineer at the start of the thing though. Or you would infer that thought process through your playing and your level of enthusiasm about things like that while they're happening.

I agree in a sense, but I try to make the distinction between accident and mistake. I am always trying to get bands to keep accidents, like an amp buzzing or random feedback or unexpected distortion or a wrong note that still sounds cool, the slightly slower measure in the middle of the verse, etc. I'm not often successful unfortunately.

Mistakes on the other hand... A straight up bad note, or a tom mic getting hit, a poorly executed drum fill, or something outside the realm of "vibey" out of tune-ness, for example. I don't think fixing stuff like that neuters anything.
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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by digitaldrummer » Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:56 pm

I agree as well. I have plenty of projects that were experimental and there was no fixing to be had (or necessary really) and many times there were happy mistakes. And going into these project this was well understood. What I'm really talking about is the kind of project where you have a keeper take, but there is one bad note or a poorly executed note - do you make the band come back in and record another take because nobody heard it in the playback? Of course not. I will just fix it (if possible) and the band is happy. And I don't always make a big deal of it because they all thought it was a perfect take anyway when they heard the playback. And that is the expectation of the band (to hear their "perfect" take). So I don't consider that a change that I have to get permission for - they are trusting me to have their back.

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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by markjazzbassist » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:05 pm

Recycled_Brains wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:22 pm
markjazzbassist wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:06 am
i realize i might be in the minority here but if i'm going to a studio i don't want anyone messing with my stuff unless i approve. there is no such thing as "fixing" in my world. art is art, it is flawed just as humanity is. the reason i don't listen to pop music is because it is "fixed" and by that i also mean another defination of that word, neutered. no thanks. keep the mistakes or well do another take. most of my favorite parts of songs are the solo that started then stopped or the amp buzzing or stevie wonder's clavinet's battery dying and the whole performance is fuzz clavinet. i don't like sterile music.

again YMMV, my own .02, hope i don't offend
You would explain that to the engineer at the start of the thing though. Or you would infer that thought process through your playing and your level of enthusiasm about things like that while they're happening.

I agree in a sense, but I try to make the distinction between accident and mistake. I am always trying to get bands to keep accidents, like an amp buzzing or random feedback or unexpected distortion or a wrong note that still sounds cool, the slightly slower measure in the middle of the verse, etc. I'm not often successful unfortunately.

Mistakes on the other hand... A straight up bad note, or a tom mic getting hit, a poorly executed drum fill, or something outside the realm of "vibey" out of tune-ness, for example. I don't think fixing stuff like that neuters anything.

to be honest after reading this thread i will make sure to make my preferences known anytime i step in a studio or hire someone. it seems "fixing" without asking is pretty normal. there's no judgement from me as i understand most are working in commerical environments with work from record labels and bands that "fixing" is the standard. so i get it. but i think this thread was a nice wake up call for me personally. i had done a record a couple years ago and now i'm wondering if it was "fixed" as the engineer was likely similar to most on here doing it out of habit. i assumed (which is my bad) that it was my product and as my hired engineer they shouldn't do anything without my approval, but i now realize that is naive. it is tough for me because my playing was exceptional, although now with the curtain pulled back my ego has taken a hit. i digress.

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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by Recycled_Brains » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:39 pm

markjazzbassist wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:05 pm
...as the engineer was likely similar to most on here doing it out of habit.
Necessity, not habit. "Habit" has too much of an unconscious or defaulting connotation in this context.

If your guy fixed things and you had no clue, does it actually matter? :high:
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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by losthighway » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:10 pm

This all underscores how important it is before the first session to have a couple conversations to communicate work flow, set intentions etc.

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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by markjazzbassist » Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:58 am

Recycled_Brains wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:39 pm
markjazzbassist wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:05 pm
...as the engineer was likely similar to most on here doing it out of habit.
Necessity, not habit. "Habit" has too much of an unconscious or defaulting connotation in this context.

If your guy fixed things and you had no clue, does it actually matter? :high:
it does to me, i like my playing to be realistic and an actual reflection of what i'm able to do with my instruments. i'm playing jazz and soul music where feeling and emotional and spirit are the number one thing being conveyed, hitting the note exactly on the 1 and not 1/64 of a beat ahead doesn't matter. it's the vibe, the emotion.

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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by markjazzbassist » Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:58 am

losthighway wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:10 pm
This all underscores how important it is before the first session to have a couple conversations to communicate work flow, set intentions etc.
amen

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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by Recycled_Brains » Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:05 am

markjazzbassist wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:58 am
it does to me, i like my playing to be realistic and an actual reflection of what i'm able to do with my instruments.
I was kidding mostly. Objective mistakes don't reflect what you are able to do with you instrument though, they're just mistakes the same way that a carpenter getting a measurement wrong is a mistake. It happens, you fix it and it does nothing to detract from the carpenter's capabilities or how much you and your people love your new house.
i'm playing jazz and soul music where feeling and emotional and spirit are the number one thing being conveyed
I'd like to think that most music has that as a priority. Even a lot of popular music. Even Steely fuckin' Dan! :shock: lol: Soul and realism are not contingent on error. It's feel, intent, content, aesthetic, etc.
hitting the note exactly on the 1 and not 1/64 of a beat ahead doesn't matter. it's the vibe, the emotion.
That micro-level of fixing is not what I'm referring to. I don't think any of us are. That IS the stuff that we want to hear, I'm in complete agreement with you there. I love using complete takes in spite of those couple measures where the tempo is noticeably faster. I love when the bass player is laying back behind the beat a little. I love when the odd drum fill goes rogue but still works, or the amp screeches randomly or the snare is rattling in the background the whole time, or the singer's voice cracks, or anything un-rehearsed happens by accident and sounds great... instances where the context allows for skewing out of bounds here and there. If the Stones made Merry Clayton redo her parts on "Gimme Shelter" because her voice breaks in spots, those wouldn't be the greatest rock moments ever recorded and that song would be a lot less incredible. Presuming to fuck with stuff like that out of habit is bullshit and falls into a realm of ego that I'm uncomfortable with, but there are objectively wrong and shitty sounding things that happen from time to time that detract from or are just not part of the intent of what the artist is trying to convey. When I hear those things, I fix them. If they say "fuck that, I love that I dropped my stick during that part and lost the beat for 3 measures!", it stays.
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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by drumsound » Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:51 am

I am not a default editor (there are a lot that are) but there are times when the focus was elsewhere and a little blip of some sort is bothersome over time. Little things like a rouge note, or a weak snare hit. Things that might be missed during basics, because we were all listening for feel in picking a keeper to overdub to. Those are the things I'll go back and take care of. Sometimes that happens when I'm mixing or doing other simple tasks without the client in the room. A couple of weeks ago there was a weird electrical blip in a song. I heard it while the client was there, but didn't want to bog down the session looking for it. Right after they left I found where it was and did a little cut and paste fix. I think I mentioned it and they were fine with. On the same track, they requested a bigger edit using the drums from a previous ending. I told them I'd take care of it and I did. They didn't need to be there while it happened. That let me play with the edit and make it sound the way they wanted, and also not sound fucked up. I tried 3-4 versions, with different lengths of the preferred ending to get it right. That shit is boring as hell for clients to watch. Most people prefer to ask for something, but have you take care of it without them there.

Though, last night I did a few little time edits on a guitar solo because the bass player didn't think the solo was in the pocket with the bass and drums. It was a simple and easy edit, but it tightened up the band a smidge. It satisfied the bass player, didn't annoy the guitar player, and everybody was happy.

There's an elasticity to all of this. Some projects its big obvious things, like comping the rhythm section, and doing the same with vocals, and sometimes even solos. Other projects are more organic and there are few if any edits. And as others have said, there are times the "editable" thing should be left because it actually makes the song cooler.

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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by vvv » Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:33 pm

drumsound wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:51 am
Little things like a rouge note, ....
That might require a make-up session! :twisted:

Working on my own and my friend's stuff, I'll do big edits, move solo sections around, even cut and paste backing vocals over each other (ex., chorus 1 and 2 over chorus 3, or replacing chorus 3).

I also find myself cutting extra-long intros, heads, B parts, fade outros ...

I always do this non-destructively when it's others' stuff, and usually play my edit first, then play back the raw.

It seems very seldom that my edits are rejected.

But I hasten to add, none of this is commercial work.
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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by digitaldrummer » Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:48 pm

to me it's about preserving "the intent" of the players (usually after they have left and can't redo it easily)
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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by drumsound » Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:47 pm

vvv wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:33 pm
drumsound wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:51 am
Little things like a rouge note, ....
That might require a make-up session! :twisted:

Working on my own and my friend's stuff, I'll do big edits, move solo sections around, even cut and paste backing vocals over each other (ex., chorus 1 and 2 over chorus 3, or replacing chorus 3).

I also find myself cutting extra-long intros, heads, B parts, fade outros ...

I always do this non-destructively when it's others' stuff, and usually play my edit first, then play back the raw.

It seems very seldom that my edits are rejected.

But I hasten to add, none of this is commercial work.
I do a lot of that stuff IN PRODUCTION with the band.
digitaldrummer wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:48 pm
to me it's about preserving "the intent" of the players (usually after they have left and can't redo it easily)
Yep.

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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by frans_13 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:11 am

digitaldrummer wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:48 pm
to me it's about preserving "the intent" of the players (usually after they have left and can't redo it easily)
Exactly that. Things that need to be done are agreed on while tracking and listening back. Usually no need to be done behind the back of the band, after all, fixes should make them happy. In one rare occasion i played a bass part in one song after the band left for the day, while the instrument/amp was still there. It was a very young band and they didn't hear the problem and the bassplayer couldn't lay it down. 15 Seconds instead of maybe an hour editing. It still wasn't polished and other songs also were a bit sloppy, which was no problem for what they intended. After they came back the next day i told them i worked with a little unicorn piss on the part (that's what we call it around here) and they were fine with it and heard i did preserve the intention of the bassplayer, to get back to the quote above.
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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by chrisinthewest » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:39 pm

*** always editing :lol:
Last edited by chrisinthewest on Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How much do you "fix" without telling your client?

Post by chrisinthewest » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:51 pm

Good topic. Honestly, editing takes too long. Even with digital tools, it’s a massive time waster. How long for them to nail a new take? 4 minutes? 4 hours? 40 hours? That’s nothing compared to editing. We could easily spend 100 hours on our own time trying to fix crap that isn’t right, it can always be just a little tighter, flow a little better, etc. Then the artist gets involved and starts declaring edits aren’t right and you need more edits. It’s so much easier if the artist does the editing for us by playing it over 100 times instead of us. But yeah we do expect to have to clean it up when it’s obvious there’s no real control in the talent there.

another edit, ;).. Has me reflecting back to those times I’ve spent many unpaid hours flawlessly frankensteining a whole bunch of takes, thinking it will solve so many problems and that it’s worth it. The results are invisible, the band has no idea how much I went through or where the edits were, and not at all how far in the ditch they started. But what they do notice is where I didn’t edit and wonder why I’d didn’t bother fixing it after spending so much time. Haha. So they’ll get their inflated ego thinking how great they are and can run off elsewhere with it. Pretty funny honestly.

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