Moving From DAW to R2R - How To Maximize Only 8 Tracks?

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0wl
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Moving From DAW to R2R - How To Maximize Only 8 Tracks?

Post by 0wl » Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:50 pm

After years of flirting with the idea, I bought a R2R and compatible mixer (Tascam 38 and M312).

I still need to have the R2R fixed up, but in the meantime I am researching some strategies for tape recording. I have done everything in a DAW thus far in my music-making life.

One basic question I have is how to maximize the 8 tracks of the Tascam 38. I've gotten used to using tons of tracks in a DAW, just cause I can. Double tracking, stereo effects, duplicating and mixing effects, parallel processing, etc.

For instance, once I get going with my R2R, I plan to use an outboard stereo reverb on my voice and instruments. This means my voice and acoustic guitar, each processed through the reverb, will take up 4 tracks total. Now I'm already out of half of my tracks!

Do people collapse reverb into a mono channel or something? Basically if I am using stereo effects, it seems I am actually limited to only 4 tracks on an 8-track machine, because each track with reverb is actually 2 tracks.

Advice? I imagine people have their ways of maximizing the few tracks they have at their disposal.

I'm all ears! :worthy:

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Re: Moving From DAW to R2R - How To Maximize Only 8 Tracks?

Post by numberthirty » Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:40 pm

0wl wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:50 pm
...

For instance, once I get going with my R2R, I plan to use an outboard stereo reverb on my voice and instruments. This means my voice and acoustic guitar, each processed through the reverb, will take up 4 tracks total. Now I'm already out of half of my tracks!

...
So...

Why would that be the case?

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Re: Moving From DAW to R2R - How To Maximize Only 8 Tracks?

Post by numberthirty » Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:42 pm

Past that...

If you don't like being stuck with just eight tracks?

Don't be.

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Re: Moving From DAW to R2R - How To Maximize Only 8 Tracks?

Post by 0wl » Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:43 pm

Most reverb is a stereo effect, no? There is a L and a R output from the reverb box, meaning I will need two tracks on the tape recorder to preserve the stereo effect of the reverb.

What I'm asking is whether most people just collapse the L and R outputs of the reverb into a mono signal, thus only requiring one track.

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Re: Moving From DAW to R2R - How To Maximize Only 8 Tracks?

Post by numberthirty » Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:52 pm

0wl wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:43 pm
Most reverb is a stereo effect, no? There is a L and a R output from the reverb box, meaning I will need two tracks on the tape recorder to preserve the stereo effect of the reverb.

What I'm asking is whether most people just collapse the L and R outputs of the reverb into a mono signal, thus only requiring one track.
Not really...

You don't really see the other ways to get there?

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Re: Moving From DAW to R2R - How To Maximize Only 8 Tracks?

Post by numberthirty » Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:54 pm

As for "Most..." reverb being a stereo effect...

Depends on what someone intends on doing. I can think of some pretty notable recent instances of mono reverb.

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Re: Moving From DAW to R2R - How To Maximize Only 8 Tracks?

Post by standup » Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:58 am

I’m surprised nobody has said this — don’t print the reverb tracks to tape. Run the reverb on an aux on your mixer. You will hear it on playback, and you’ll hear it when you mix down.

It’s been a long time since I used 8 track tape, but consider doing things like bouncing the rhythm section to a single mono track. Maybe bounce multiple guitars, keyboards, chord instruments to a pair of tracks for stereo, bounce all backing vocals to one or two tracks, etc.

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Re: Moving From DAW to R2R - How To Maximize Only 8 Tracks?

Post by markjazzbassist » Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:12 am

record your tracks dry and add the reverb in the mixing stage.

tips
- get the sounds sounding perfect on the way in, don't "fix it in the mix", mix should just be pulling up faders and using Aux Sends to add that goodness
- drums to 1 track mono, you can bounce down backing vocals to 1 track, or track them all to 1 track
- arrangement is key, you need to plan it out beforehand instead of just recording tracks and tracks and figuring it out later
- rhythm instruments can be put together on one track if you are ok with them being panned together, ie. rhythm guitar/keyboard and bass on one track
-

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Re: Moving From DAW to R2R - How To Maximize Only 8 Tracks?

Post by digitaldrummer » Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:28 am

it's not clear WHY you want to go to 8-track tape (although 4 and 8 track does seem to be a fad lately). If you want limitations, well you got em. there will be a lot of bouncing and committing to sounds and maybe redoing it over and over again until it's right - even after you bounced and committed once or twice already. Will you bounce your mixes to a 2-track or into the DAW? if you want to torture yourself even more, maybe find an ADAT machine.

or if you just want the sound of tape, why not fill up the 8 tracks then dump it into the DAW and finish the mixes there? there are lots of ways to use the tape machine and not have all of the limitations.
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Re: Moving From DAW to R2R - How To Maximize Only 8 Tracks?

Post by A.David.MacKinnon » Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:12 am

markjazzbassist wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:12 am
record your tracks dry and add the reverb in the mixing stage.
This ^^^^^^

Beyond that, don't bounce unless you absolutely have to and even then be careful about what you're bouncing. 3 tracks of backing vocal harmonies? Yes. 7 drum tracks? No.
You'll get cleaner more hi-fi results submixing multiple mics to one track than you will recording a track for each mic and then bouncing. I rocked a 38 for years. It's a great machine for what it is. You're going to have to do some planning and think hard about track counts but that's part of the flow. It will likely help your arranging skills as well. It was discussed in the McCartney 1, 2, 3 thread but one of the reasons that those Beatles tracks sound so fucking good is that the arrangements are great and very SIMPLE. There aren't a million parts but what's there is exactly what needs to be there.

Remember - the 38 cant bounce from one track to the track next door without feedback type artifacts (maybe due to cross talk between tracks). That means you cant fill tracks 1-7 and bounce to 8. You need to fill 1-6 and bounce over 7 to 8.

Get a calibration tape and learn to set up your machine. Do it often. Keep the tape path CLEAN. 99% alcohol on all the metal parts. Gentle soap and water on the rubber (then rinse and dry).

Other struff -
if you've got multiple players and can do it record multiple parts at the same time to the same track. Like say a guitar double and hand percussion. You need to plan where you want those things to get panned in the final mix because you can't unmix them later.

If you've got only one track left and lots of little things left to do put them all on that one track - chorus back-ups, solo, verse piano, whatever. If the parts don't overlap you can mult the output of the tape track to as many channels on the mixer as you need and then use the mutes to go from part to part. That way each part gets it's own eq and fader volume and you just have to unmute it when it gets to that part of the song.

Remember that you can add parts in the mixing stage if you've run out of tracks but still have something important to do. I used to do this with drones and tape loop parts that weren't really rhythm and timing dependent.

Don't slam the tape with crazy hot levels unless you really want that sound. It's a bad default strategy.

Keep notes. Lots and lots of notes. Track sheets, set up notes, tape counter locations, everything. Get rolls of low tac painter's tape and a pile of sharpies. Label all the gear so you know whats going where. There's nothing worse then punching in on the wrong track and erasing that awesome vocal, solo, whatever. We've all done it but hopefully only once.

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Re: Moving From DAW to R2R - How To Maximize Only 8 Tracks?

Post by MoreSpaceEcho » Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:43 am

^^^^^ All gold there.

Thread is making me nostalgic for my old Otari mx5050....

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Re: Moving From DAW to R2R - How To Maximize Only 8 Tracks?

Post by kslight » Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:02 pm

I rock a 388, I don’t find 8 tracks that limiting. You just have to commit to something and be deliberate about decisions. For example, I wouldn’t even mess with doing a ton of mics on drums, 2-3 can be plenty, or can submix going in.

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Re: Moving From DAW to R2R - How To Maximize Only 8 Tracks?

Post by markjazzbassist » Mon Nov 08, 2021 2:41 pm

A.David.MacKinnon wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:12 am
Don't slam the tape with crazy hot levels unless you really want that sound. It's a bad default strategy.
this is important here. everyone online in forums or wherever does this "slam the tape man", "hit the red" thing, but i've only ever experienced that sounding awful on smaller format reel to reels and cassettes. sure if you are running 1" or 2" GP9 tape you can slam the crap out of it because it's such a high level tape and super thick and wide track widths you won't saturate/distort. but if you aren't it will just sound bad. Like David said, reasonable recording levels will yield you a better sound.

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Re: Moving From DAW to R2R - How To Maximize Only 8 Tracks?

Post by vernier » Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:04 pm

With eight track, I usually use 6 and have 2 tracks left over. As for verb, mine's mono, and gets mixed in slightly on the right side of a mix. Thats about it.

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Re: Moving From DAW to R2R - How To Maximize Only 8 Tracks?

Post by numberthirty » Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:25 pm

standup wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:58 am
I’m surprised nobody has said this — don’t print the reverb tracks to tape. Run the reverb on an aux on your mixer. You will hear it on playback, and you’ll hear it when you mix down.

It’s been a long time since I used 8 track tape, but consider doing things like bouncing the rhythm section to a single mono track. Maybe bounce multiple guitars, keyboards, chord instruments to a pair of tracks for stereo, bounce all backing vocals to one or two tracks, etc.
markjazzbassist wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:12 am
record your tracks dry and add the reverb in the mixing stage.

...
That was about what I was fishing for...

Even if one would not be tracking on tape/mixing in DAW, there are still at least a couple of options for putting reverb on dry tracks with the board in question.

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