how much snare do you want (or not want) in your overheads

[joninc]

I have been working on mixing an album I recorded here and finding that i can't dial in the snare level or tone that I want (on one particular song) because I have too much in my overheads (spaced pair of Soyuz 13 fet)... It's not an issue I've run into a lot.

The part on this song is played with brushes and has all kinds of rolling ghost notey stuff. The overheads are a bit too papery sounding but are providing a picture of the kit/cymbals that I like so it's not as simple as just turning it down or rolling off some top end on them.

Anyways - it's lead to me to think about how I use my overheads and reminding me of a few videos I watched on MWTM where Albini (and somebody else) were using a stereo ribbon on the overheads (AEA R88) and mentioning how they love that the snare ends up in the null and they get hardly any snare in their overheads...

I've never really tried to get "as little snare as possible" in my overheads but wondering if this is a common idea that lots of folks apply when recording drums to have a better control of the tones and balance in the mix...

What do you guys do?

[Recycled_Brains]

I battle with this a lot. I don't like a lot unless I'm using 4038's and most of the kit is coming from those.

One thing that's been helpful, is I use the Fabfilter Saturn on the tape setting to basically chop the snare off without adding any really obvious distortion to the cymbals. It works pretty well. Less competition btwn the close mic'd snare and whatever the OH's picked up.

I use my Hamptone preamps when I'm tracking often too, because they will do the same thing if you push em a little. Usually I can't push them enough though, so my next move is to put an attenuator on the outputs. I'd love to not have to use a plugin to reach the goal.

[Nick Sevilla]

I was taught to use the overheads to get the main balance of the entire drumkit.
Which is not difficult with a good drummer .

As to using different overhead mic polar patterns? YES PLEASE.

I've done drums with AKG 451EBs, in a spaced pair, both pointing down at the kit from high above, and kind of getting a sort of Left and Right that is not too pronounced. These AKGs are NOt pointing at anything, they are straight down with their capsules parallel to the floor. Mostly for rock / pop type productions. Key here is to get the snare and kick drum to have the same exact level going to each of these mics, so it sits in the center. Tales some work, but good results overall. Every drum usually gets a mic in this type of setup. Learned from an engineer who has more Grammys than most people. His favorite saying was "Well, isn't that interesting."

I've done overheads with one ribbon mic, a Coles 4038, with the NULL pointing directly at the snare. Note, you still get snare on that mic, but it is a "wash" without too much transient of the snare, which is nice. Mostly on Jazz or softly played productions. Learned this from more than one Jazz drummer over the years, but with different ribbon mics being used. I tend to not use this much, as I prefer to record drum transients asccurately, and a ribbon sure as heck cannot do that well enough for my ears.

I've also used a tube LDC like a U47 / U67 / what have you, pointing at a place where the balance of the entire mic sounds good. Meaning never directly at the snare, and almost never at the center of the kit. You just have to get a tall ladder, if possible, and listen from up there for a few minutes. Learned this by experimenting. It can work like a charm. Kill the drummer if he / she hits this mic at any point in production. then hire another drummer.

The snare is the most LOUD drum, the hihat the most crazy transients, because they get hit often and with varying quality. Always remember this.

If I were you, I'd spend time learning exactly how the polar pattern "looks" for your chosen overhead mic(s). turn it on, and rotate it in front of the kit or a snare. Learn how much isolation you can get from your mic(s), and then decide if they are worth using for that particular song or style of music.

Note: If your song will have two completely different levels and styles of drumming, it might behoove you to get the LOUD set of mics in first, and then get a smaller set or 2-3 mics for only the SOFT part. Every single time I know I will have brushes on a song, I set up a second microphone just for that section. Usually an AKG 414, pointing direct at the snare where the brushes will sound good. This mic, of course, will be useless for the rest of the song, but who cares?

EXPERIMENT.

Cheers

[trodden]

Fuck. I wished I recorded more other styles of music than the kind where I have to lay a snare sample in with the snare mics themselves or just jack the two snare mics up a lot for stupid blast beats. I've never had a problem with "too much"... It's always not enough. Snares always sounded better in OH's than the close mics.

[losthighway]

Yeah, I usually am cool with plenty of snare in the overheads, it's the hi hats that are a problem.

But I know how when brushes or mallets come out things can go a lot different in the drum mix.

For your problem I would explore eq and compression of the overheads. Like something fast and only grabbing the snare transients might help bring the cymbals up relative to the snare and leave more room for your close mic.

I'd also play with eq. I typically eq overheads gently and with wide curves, like 2-3 octaves. But once in a while I can pull more of the fundamental of a specific drum out by boosting something narrow at a few db. If I was hearing papery, I might see what happens with a little cut in the high mids and a boost somewhere down by the root of the snare. Sometimes something gentle around 200-400 can bring more of the oomph of the drum out when you find the right frequency, provided it doesn't add a bunch of low mid mud coming from other things. But then again with brushes, there may not be much of the fundamental of the drum available and it's just the wires across a coated head.

[mjau]

Maybe a little mid-side to pull the snare down a bit but keep the cymbals where you like them?

[A.David.MacKinnon]

I generally like to have my overheads give me the main drum picture. So decent amounts of snare in the overhead is A-OK by me. There's one drummer I've recorded a bunch with an old, old Ludwig snare. It sounds amazing in the OHs but so terrible in any kind of close mic.

All that said, I fully agree that mallets and brushes change everything. I often have to alter or entirely change my set up in those situations.

[mwerden]

Usually when snare is too loud in the OH I'll compress them, effectively making the cymbals louder. If the snare is ice-picky or some other kind of awful in the overheads you can sidechain the OH to the close SN mic so you can mask the OH with the close mic only when the snare is hit. Sounds like that may be a losing battle with your current situation though.

In terms of recording I usually don't have an issue, but would adjust this by mic choice in general. Putting a ribbon over the snare for the null sounds cool, but not sure how that happens with a stereo ribbon? Unless the top of the mic is aimed at the snare?

[vernier]

I've never had a snare too loud ...guess you'd need to re-record with the mic in a different position?

[Jitters]

I wonder about positioning a hypercardioid (say an m160) above the hats and pointing them at the toms and ride in order to get less snare and and less hats t'boot...

[drumsound]

I wonder about positioning a hypercardioid (say an m160) above the hats and pointing them at the toms and ride in order to get less snare and and less hats t'boot...

A lot of people love M160s on overs. I think it would depend on the room how effective your described method would be. If the room is pretty live sounding, I think you'd still have a decent amount of snare, but it would be more ambient snare sound. In a pretty dead/dry space, probably less.

That is total speculation though. I've only ever tried an M160 on guitar amps when I did a session at the original Bunker in Brooklyn.

[Recycled_Brains]

I wonder about positioning a hypercardioid (say an m160) above the hats and pointing them at the toms and ride in order to get less snare and and less hats t'boot...

A lot of people love M160s on overs. I think it would depend on the room how effective your described method would be. If the room is pretty live sounding, I think you'd still have a decent amount of snare, but it would be more ambient snare sound. In a pretty dead/dry space, probably less.

That is total speculation though. I've only ever tried an M160 on guitar amps when I did a session at the original Bunker in Brooklyn.

One of my favorite things about using M160s as OHs is that they are very directional. You can get some insane separation between your L/R channels so I think if you angle a spaced pair out toward the toms/hats/cymbals and keep the snare off-axis, you'll be in good shape leaving the snare out more than other mics. Also the reason that if you point them at your snare, you can pretty much count on not needing a snare mic all that much. If the song sound of the band allows it, I'll do one over the drummer's shoulder aimed at the snare, one directly above the snare pointing straight down and barely use the close snare mic. The exact opposite of what we're talking about haha.

I've experienced this in live and dead rooms, and in non-ideal environments where taking the room out of the picture is a smart move.

[Jitters]

It sounds like it might be worth a try, although I don’t have a pair, so placement would be trickier.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

This is a good idea, the only thing is snare sounds SO good thru an m160 overhead it seems a shame to position the mic(s) to minimize it. I'm just sayin'....

[Jitters]

Have you ever heard a Telefunken m80 on the shell of a snare though?