Recording Vocal Tracks without headphones

[digitaldrummer]

yeah, so that's my world right now... I setup the mic facing the monitors (cardioid so should get the full rejection) but it's a condenser so it's not a super tight cardioid and there is definitely bleed. I try to keep the volume down lower, but the client often asks for it to be louder (too loud and were getting feedback, so...). I also took a mic boom stand, set the boom in a "T" and hung a moving blanket over it. That also sits directly between the mic and the monitors (the monitors are wider than the blanket, and you can still definitely hear the playback). I could probably setup baffles along each side, to absorb more, but haven't tried that yet (that's more work...).

anyone else ever have to do this and if so, any tricks you learned to minimize bleed?

I think someone else convinced the client that it would help them keep better pitch, but I imagine if there was a good headphone mix, it should be no different than what we are getting now (except a lot less bleed to deal with later). So I will eventually try to work back toward that...

[Colorblind]

I always wondered what would happen if you did a vocal take with no headphones, then recorded a second pass with the microphone in the exact same position and the monitors at the exact same volume, but no vocals. Then flip the polarity of the second take and see what bleed might get cancelled out.

[Snarl 12/8]

I thought the whole trick to this was to flip polarity on one of the speakers so it cancels the other at the microphone. Make sure the mix is the same L/R though for that. No stereo anything.

[A.David.MacKinnon]

I always wondered what would happen if you did a vocal take with no headphones, then recorded a second pass with the microphone in the exact same position and the monitors at the exact same volume, but no vocals. Then flip the polarity of the second take and see what bleed might get cancelled out.

This works pretty well. Ten per cent better if you get the singer to stand in the same place. It won't cancel 100% of the bleed but enough to make a difference.
Another trick is to flip the polarity on one of the speakers, monitor in mono and put the mic in the spot with the most cancelation. Play a sine wave while moving the mic and watch for the level to drop to find the best spot.

[drumsound]

When I've done this I kept the singers near the back of the room, and i put a gobo against the wall to the right of the singer. I probably recorded a pass and then fiddled with EQ to make sure that once mix time came I wasn't screwed. I always made sure to keep the monitor volume the same so punches never sounded different.

[standup]

This sounds like a fun experiment—monitor in mono with on speaker polarity flipped. I think I can do this with the Drawmer CMC3 I’m using to run monitors. Next time I’m singing on one of my own demos I’ll give it a try.

[A.David.MacKinnon]

I always wondered what would happen if you did a vocal take with no headphones, then recorded a second pass with the microphone in the exact same position and the monitors at the exact same volume, but no vocals. Then flip the polarity of the second take and see what bleed might get cancelled out.

One more thing on this, any processing done on the vocal track must be mirrored on the bleed track. For compression that means feeding the uncompressed vocal into the side chain input of the bleed track compressor so that it reacts the same way as the comp on the vocal track.

[alexdingley]

If I’m remembering my studio-trick lore properly… the whole “phase-flip one monitor & keep the mic capsule in the phase-null spot” works best when the speakers and mic are positioned as three points of an equilateral triangle so that it’s easy to identify the best “null spot” and that you get the best nullifying effect in that spot if you’re using a single cone speaker in each side of the triangle; Like Auratones or Tannoys that are concentric drivers. I’ve even heard of folks using NS-10s (or other nearfields) with the tweeters disconnected.

I’ve never actually done one of these hacks, but I might try later this summer with a vocal track for my band. Frankly I’m not sure how I’d get the mics positioned ~6’ high… but I’m sure there’s a way.

[losthighway]

I always made sure to keep the monitor volume the same so punches never sounded different.

This would be very hard for me. I seem to adjust monitor levels compulsively without noticing.

[digitaldrummer]

I think I'm going to try to see if a Shure SM7B will work (they have much better rejection than a condenser) and maybe that will get me a slightly better track. Some tracks were recorded at another studio (with even more bleed) so I may not have a choice there unless I can talk the client into re-recording those... I don't really have an easy way to flip phase on one monitor right now. and let's just say that I'm looking for a solution where the level of effort required matches the expected level of result...

[drumsound]

I always made sure to keep the monitor volume the same so punches never sounded different.

This would be very hard for me. I seem to adjust monitor levels compulsively without noticing.

I do too, that's why I mentioned it. It's a common thing for me, hear something I'm not sure of, turn it up a tad, or maybe adjust the mix, etc...

[A.David.MacKinnon]

I think I'm going to try to see if a Shure SM7B will work (they have much better rejection than a condenser) and maybe that will get me a slightly better track.

This will help a lot. I do vocals without headphones quite a bit (live with the band and as overdubs) and honestly if you put some effort into the set-up the bleed isn't an issue.

[vvv]

I've tried it a few times and found best case result was not preferred result.

Yeah, it's workable, but so is singing with a mouth full of chewing gum.

Bad enuff a singer (like me) wants to sit down to sing (because I'm engineering, also, so it's easier), but why work to less then best?

If pitch is the issue, turn the cans down.

Fronting the live band, or even the singer playing at the same time, is different, IMO, because that's about actual performance vibe, not prima donna preference*.

*stick around, mebbe I'll tell ya's how I really feel.

[losthighway]

I always made sure to keep the monitor volume the same so punches never sounded different.

This would be very hard for me. I seem to adjust monitor levels compulsively without noticing.

I do too, that's why I mentioned it. It's a common thing for me, hear something I'm not sure of, turn it up a tad, or maybe adjust the mix, etc...

I could see putting masking tape over relevant faders/knobs not to physically lock them in place but as a visual and tactile message, "No-no!".

[numberthirty]

I think I'm going to try to see if a Shure SM7B will work (they have much better rejection than a condenser) and maybe that will get me a slightly better track. Some tracks were recorded at another studio (with even more bleed) so I may not have a choice there unless I can talk the client into re-recording those... I don't really have an easy way to flip phase on one monitor right now. and let's just say that I'm looking for a solution where the level of effort required matches the expected level of result...

There, I gotta ask...

Are you saying that you have existing vocals that were tracked w/o headphones that have a lot of bleed because of that they were tracked that way?

As for the SM7, something there does occur to me now that you brought it up. Any chance that you have or can borrow/rent a Beyerdynamic M88? It having a hypercardioid pickup pattern might make a notable difference that might get even closer than an SM7 to solving the problem you are faced with.

One other thing I thought of this post from a little ways back. If I was looking for an "I'm not going to have to try to pull off a triple lindy..." possibility? I might try this to see if it comes close to solving the problem by coming at it from another angle.

(Assuming you have a "Figure 8..." microphone to try it with...)

Reading "Recording the Beatles" was a huge turning point for me in this department. Soon after seeing the diagrams of John and Paul singing into opposite sides of a Figure-8 mic while listening to a speaker positioned in the mic's null, I started using figure-8 extensively to get out of logistical jams. The first time I tried it was when I was asked to include a mandolin player in a basic-tracking session after I had already set everything up. The only floor space available was near the drums, so I placed the mic so the drums would be in the null, the mandolin on one side of the 8, and a gobo on the other side of the 8, NOT between the mic and the drums. I was amazed by how much isolation was achieved by using the null position and blocking spillage into the other side of the 8. I've gotten excellent results using fig-8 for drum overheads when loud amps are also in the room.