let's talk monitoring / accurate sound reproduction for mixing

[joninc]

I'm on a bit of a hunt for how to improve my mixes with regards to frequency balances and am starting to wonder if the pro ac studio 100's (which I have so enjoyed working on and with for the last 10 years or so) are a little too soft in the upper frequencies so I tend to push a bit too much top end on my mixes and outside of my space they sound brighter than I'd like and not quite as rich.

I realize this is a very subjective thing (how bright is too bright etc) but hear I wonder if any of you have used them and found yourselves feeling this way at all?

I don't want to just throw a bunch of money (which I don't have atm) to buy a set of amphions or something but considering doing something like that next year if I can afford it.

Before you all jump on the room treatment thing, my room is quite controlled and treated. Using a good amp (Bryston 4b) with good cabling (anti cables). I monitor off my soundcraft ghost board via the 2 track return (fed by ch 23/24 on my Iz Radar w/nyquist converters)

here's one other possible wrench - i have a set of yamaha HS5's which I use as an alt reference and find that they aren't telling me much more than the proacs are in the crispier reaches of the freq spectrum either (they are powered and therefore don't feed through the bryston)

the common denominator between these 2 speaker sets being that they are both fed off the board and this does make me wonder if perhaps there's a component in the ghost that is wearing out and skewing what I hear? worn out caps? I have no idea how viable that is.

I had a weird experience this year where a co producer heard some pretty obvious electrical hash/buzz on a mix that I had done and It was nearly imperceptible on my speakers - but i could hear it on my phone when he played it on his speakers! that was a real bummer.

any other thoughts on what the issue could be?

[digitaldrummer]

Do you have a different board, or interface, or some way to go directly the monitors - in other words bypass the board - just as a test? Another thought I had was maybe you have too much broadband absorption and it has sucked up the high end in your room?

[losthighway]

Have you used the room eq wizard to measure your current setup? It might be interesting to compare the two pairs of monitors also.

[Nick Sevilla]

Well, it might be time to test stuff in your studio.

Use an FFT analyzer across your ghost's main mix output, and also out of the monitor (control room) outputs. See if there is a difference between them.

they are both fed off the board

Do you mean from separate outputs, or the same one? Your DAW should have adecent frequency analyzer plug in (FFT) to look at what is happening with your board.

After that, you need to spend time deciding and listening to different monitors for what you feel you are missing in your space.

[Scodiddly]

Time to take some measurements!

As mentioned above, if you don't have some kind of FFT plug-in I'm sure you can find one.

Borrow an Earthworks M30 or similar measurement mic to check your speakers. Do you know anybody local to you in the live sound field?

[joninc]

they are both fed off the board

Do you mean from separate outputs, or the same one? Your DAW should have adecent frequency analyzer plug in (FFT) to look at what is happening with your board.

separate - the ghost has a toggle for an alternate output which is what the yamahas are connected to

[Nick Sevilla]

they are both fed off the board

Do you mean from separate outputs, or the same one? Your DAW should have adecent frequency analyzer plug in (FFT) to look at what is happening with your board.

separate - the ghost has a toggle for an alternate output which is what the yamahas are connected to

Ah then you must test both outputs, and the Master or Main output, if that is where you take your Mix Print from. Any deviation means they are not the same, so you'll have to figure out what you want to do with the differences.

[joninc]

thanks for the responses so far but as mentioned - i spent a bunch of time and money setting up the space well 9 years ago - hired acoustic consultants and built out all the treatments - so i understand the importance of all of that but at this point I am more convinced that:

A) something is drifting off spec in my board (therefore dulling the top end of my monitors)

or B) maybe just that I am just growing more attuned to treble and noticing that I am not hearing enough on my current speakers. I am a notoriously slow learner and it's taken me years to notice higher levels of detail that previously wouldn't have noticed so I think this is entirely possible as well.

PS - do any of you change your tweeters out over time (i never have) - or only if they blow?

I am hoping to borrow a friends set of AMPHIONS to see if that immediately changes anything - if not then I'll be curious to swap the board as the speaker controller for something else (don't have that option currently or i'd try that first!)

[jimjazzdad]

Hmm...9 -10 years since setting up the studio acoustics...hopefully the treble deficit has nothing to do with your 'personal monitors' and the passage of time resulting in attenuated higher frequencies...I am in my late sixties and I can't hear above 12 kHz now...more like 10 khz in practical listening

[Nick Sevilla]

thanks for the responses so far but as mentioned - i spent a bunch of time and money setting up the space well 9 years ago - hired acoustic consultants and built out all the treatments - so i understand the importance of all of that but at this point I am more convinced that:

A) something is drifting off spec in my board (therefore dulling the top end of my monitors)

or B) maybe just that I am just growing more attuned to treble and noticing that I am not hearing enough on my current speakers. I am a notoriously slow learner and it's taken me years to notice higher levels of detail that previously wouldn't have noticed so I think this is entirely possible as well.

PS - do any of you change your tweeters out over time (i never have) - or only if they blow?

I am hoping to borrow a friends set of AMPHIONS to see if that immediately changes anything - if not then I'll be curious to swap the board as the speaker controller for something else (don't have that option currently or i'd try that first!)

Another possibility: When was the last hearing test you did on yourself? 9 years is a long time, and your hearing will be different, especially in the high frequencies. That dulling of the top; end of your speakers, could be your hearing.

But, also do that FFT testing on your gear, to eliminate any technical issues that might exist there.

[drumsound]

I think what others say about testing both your outputs from your console AND the inputs of your ears are good ideas.

Not to throw a HUGE WRENCH into this, but have you also considered a DSP solution. There are a lot of them out there that seem to work really well. My new monitors are using a Dayton Audio system. The monitor maker came and we installed the system and he tuned the room with pink noise and a measurement mic. It's pretty great.

[joninc]

Hmm...9 -10 years since setting up the studio acoustics...hopefully the treble deficit has nothing to do with your 'personal monitors' and the passage of time resulting in attenuated higher frequencies...I am in my late sixties and I can't hear above 12 kHz now...more like 10 khz in practical listening

as mentioned earlier in the thread - i could hear the higher frequencies when played back on friends speakers over my iphone!

the issue isn't my hearing - i can hear these frequencies outside of my room - the issue i think is related to something in my monitoring.

[joninc]

I think what others say about testing both your outputs from your console AND the inputs of your ears are good ideas.

Not to throw a HUGE WRENCH into this, but have you also considered a DSP solution. There are a lot of them out there that seem to work really well. My new monitors are using a Dayton Audio system. The monitor maker came and we installed the system and he tuned the room with pink noise and a measurement mic. It's pretty great.

I'm totally open to a solution like this - tell me more... ballpark cost?

[digitaldrummer]

another small consideration... I have tested my room as well (REW) and made adjustments. But then I move shit around in my studio. drums go up, come down, cases get moved, drums get sold, things move around on shelves... in other words it's never exactly the same in my room and I doubt after 9 years, yours is exactly how you had it then (it sounds like you actually use it). but even if it is magically the same, have you measured humidity then and now? Temperature and humidity can also make some noticeable differences in how a room sounds.

[winky dinglehoffer]

i could hear the higher frequencies when played back on friends speakers over my iphone!

Of course, the iphone is a very trebly device--it's going to accentuate high-end stuff. Nonetheless.....it'd probably be worthwhile to figure out what frequencies exactly you're losing--is it everything over frequency x, or is it a specific frequency range? Is it that these frequencies aren't making it out of the speakers, or is it that they're masked by other stuff, or that there's a level dropoff above a certain point? Does the level of dropoff increase as the frequency gets higher? It'll probably be easier to make a good diagnosis of the problem if you have a more exact handle on the symptoms.