Tracking bands without a console is a PITA!

[T-rex]

How do you all do it?

Since moving to Logic a few years ago I’ve been mostly mixing other people’s project ls or tracking myself on drums. But occasionally I’ll track a project at my home studio and it’s painful.

I used to have a Ghost and a bunch of outboard and it was amazing. Before that, I always had some sort of console and outboard even if it was just a Mackie 1608 and a cheap verb for vocal tracking. Am I dense? I’m not opposed to getting a small mixer again, but I don’t track that many bands anymore. I should be able to track, hear what I’m tracking and just go.

I have a Scarlet 18i/20 and it’s a great interface but I used to use RME stuff and the routing on the scarlet is either terribly implemented or I am an idiot. Either one could easily be true.

[digitaldrummer]

I'm using an Apollo 16 (silver, fw) and a bunch of outboard preamps (mostly 500 series) and I track bands, singer-songwriters, etc. I like that the UA console app can "monitor" in real time with no perceptible latency, and that I can create 4 unique headphone mixes (functionally only 3 for me, because I send them to a Nady HPA-8 headphone amp that has A,B, C channels....). Beyond that if someone is not hearing what they need I swap out their headphones (for one that has more bass, more mids, or "more me" - I've got a pair of those....). My studio is one room, and we are usually setup in sort of a circle around the room, so everyone sees and hears everything. I've never owned a console (but regularly use live mixers) so never really missed one. after I setup mics and DIs or whatever, we usually roll through something to get levels and playback to make sure the sounds are good and then I just have to monitor levels like in any session (although it is reaching for preamps which are not always right in front of me).

[andychamp]

What part of the new process do you have a hard time adapting to, what is it you're missing from your former way of doing things?

[T-rex]

Easy real time (or very low latency) monitoring mainly.

I think mainly I don’t fully grasp how to best do this with Logic. The routing seems weird on tracks with record monitoring on. They all go straight to the stereo out. Also, you can put a reverb on an individual tracks insert and hear that effect while recording, but still record
the dry signal. Which is great. But routing multiple tracks to a bus or sending to a verb does not work? So if I want to track on multiple tracks, I have to have a verb on all of them or keep moving things around? Again I’m sure there’s a better way to do this but I’ve searched a ton on Logic and haven’t found it yet.

The Apollo basically seems to solve these issues and I love the UAD stuff. But the price of an Apollo is still a lot considering it’s still a limited set of inputs without additional cash outlay. But it’s something I’ve thought about.

[digitaldrummer]

I thought the Focusrite Scarlett had some kind of console-like app too? If you can monitor through that, then just mute all your inputs in Logic (while tracks are armed) and that should take care of any latency issues. With the Apollo I can put a reverb on a vocal track or whatever if I want (and not commit it), but I've noticed that if I have sends (with pre-fader enabled) going to a reverb in Pro Tools, those will also give me the effect and even though there is some latency involved in that, it is not noticeable (more like having a pre-delay on a reverb).

[Nick Sevilla]

I still have my console LOL.

That said, I use Focusrite RedNet 2 interfaces, which have a roundtrip latency to / from my laptop of only 4 mS. Good enough for most musicians.

If that is too much latency, I still have my Digidesign Pro Tools HD10 with those 192 interfaces, which gets me sub 1mS latency. Only needed for sticklers.

The human brain can start telling there is a delay at 12 mS or higher. Most only at 20 mS or higher.

[alexdingley]

I have a Scarlet 18i/20 and it’s a great interface but I used to use RME stuff and the routing on the scarlet is either terribly implemented or I am an idiot. Either one could easily be true.

This might not be the most helpful post here — but just to make sure we get you feeling less gas-lit by your hardware....You're NOT missing anything — the focusrite stuff sounds good, but their monitoring control panel is straight up garbage. I've used a lot of brands of I/O control panel before: MOTU Cue Mix / M-Audio 2626 / Focusrite Claret8 / UA twin / Antelope Orion 32+ / (and now) Metric Halo... and of all of the interfaces I've dealt with focusrite's control panel is the most absolute dog-sh*t one I've experienced. I have a buddy who's got one, and every time he wants my help, I cringe a little. We get things done, but it's NEVER easy.

So, if I were you, I'd find my way to another I/O platform. I've never used RME, but a friend has one, and it seems super-intuitive and reliable (from my observations during the one afternoon I was over his shoulder for some Mac DAW consulting).

I have recently helped overhaul a couple of pro studios by putting Antelope Orion32 rigs in their + my own Metric Halo adventure has been pretty rewarding (in the real-time monitoring sense), though it's been an expensive endeavor.

[digitaldrummer]

UA Console is easy to use (once you get your head around it) and I also once had an Orion 32 so I agree that it also has good monitoring/routing software. I also had a Lynx Aurora and it was pretty flexible too (I like the UA best of these). I wonder if it matters which generation of the Scarlett 18i20 you have? Is yours using Mix control or Focusrite Control? I saw a couple things saying that the newer Focusrite Control is better (but have not used either myself)

[T-rex]

This might not be the most helpful post here — but just to make sure we get you feeling less gas-lit by your hardware....You're NOT missing anything — the focusrite stuff sounds good, but their monitoring control panel is straight up garbage. I've used a lot of brands of I/O control panel before: MOTU Cue Mix / M-Audio 2626 / Focusrite Claret8 / UA twin / Antelope Orion 32+ / (and now) Metric Halo... and of all of the interfaces I've dealt with focusrite's control panel is the most absolute dog-sh*t one I've experienced. I have a buddy who's got one, and every time he wants my help, I cringe a little. We get things done, but it's NEVER easy.

So, if I were you, I'd find my way to another I/O platform. I've never used RME, but a friend has one, and it seems super-intuitive and reliable (from my observations during the one afternoon I was over his shoulder for some Mac DAW consulting).

Yes, thank you for that. The RME was really simple and I had no issues. It was the PCI cards that connected to the outboard boxes which is the only reason I ditched those as I moved to Mac.

I have been eyeing antelope for a while. I should just go UAD most likely, but for the price of a nice Apollo I could get a used antelope and build a rack of nice pres. But I’ll look into the Apollo a bit more.

Digitaldrummer, I have Focusrite control, not the mix control. Mix looked more like my old RME GUI, Focusrite control is just a cluster to work with.

[permanent hearing damage]

I had to learn pretty quick cuz my Ghost died mid session on me like 12 years ago. It took me a couple months to really get the hang of it, but it gets easy. The computer is much more flexible than any console. Admittedly, I'm unfamiliar with focusrite's software but it seems every interface has a zero latency monitoring option.

[permanent hearing damage]

just read the post specifically about their monitoring. well, if your comp is decent, you shouldn't even have to use it. i don't know your computer or your track count, but I'd bet you can get prett low latency monitoring. I use 7msec all the time and have never had a band say a thing about it.

[trodden]

I hear you. I've slowly been weaning myself off the console the past 5 years. A benefit of having a TDM rig for awhile and then an HD rig, I didn't have to worry about latency when going hybrid. I'm just now using a non-HD, native rig and still trying to get the muscle memory going on with having Focusrite Control running in the background, but as other have said, I may be able to get around not using it for monitoring because the latency isn't "that bad". For some reason, my head brain has a hard time with Focusrite Control. Like, it takes me a moment to make sense of it.

[trodden]

This might not be the most helpful post here — but just to make sure we get you feeling less gas-lit by your hardware....You're NOT missing anything — the focusrite stuff sounds good, but their monitoring control panel is straight up garbage. I've used a lot of brands of I/O control panel before: MOTU Cue Mix / M-Audio 2626 / Focusrite Claret8 / UA twin / Antelope Orion 32+ / (and now) Metric Halo... and of all of the interfaces I've dealt with focusrite's control panel is the most absolute dog-sh*t one I've experienced. I have a buddy who's got one, and every time he wants my help, I cringe a little. We get things done, but it's NEVER easy.

Phew, I'm not the only one! Good to hear!!!!

[Nick Sevilla]

I still have my console LOL.

That said, I use Focusrite RedNet 2 interfaces, which have a roundtrip latency to / from my laptop of only 4 mS. Good enough for most musicians.

If that is too much latency, I still have my Digidesign Pro Tools HD10 with those 192 interfaces, which gets me sub 1mS latency. Only needed for sticklers.

The human brain can start telling there is a delay at 12 mS or higher. Most only at 20 mS or higher.

Ps the RedNet 2 are DANTE, you do not need a monitoring app underneath your DAW. It is the same as using Avid Pro Tools HD.

[Nick Sevilla]

If you are willing to risk it, you can build a decent Digidesign Pro Tools TDM Accel system for about a grand to 2 grand, depending on how much hardware you want to get. You can get them for a song these days. If they are in good shape, you can keep them running for years more. The Digidesign 192s with both analog in and out are becoming more rare. But you can still find the input cards, which is what seems to be parted out the most these days. I still have mine with one 192 that has 2 DA output cards, one AD input card, and one 8 channel digital card, along with the HD Sync for slaving it to my other DAW.

But that said, anything with DANTE technology should get you very low latency. like, ahem, a digital CONSOLE that has it LOLOLOL.