Where should I draw the line with a preamp?

[drummerdan]

I've been looking into a new preamp (my first, actually) and I want somthing nice, but my mic selection may hinder me. I use sm57's and 58's, 2 tapeop overheads, and 1 marshall LDC. My mic selection is small, but i've gotten good with these mics overs the past few years.
So where do I draw the line when looking for a preamp? Would my mics hold back a $1500 Avalon pre? Should I cap it a somthing smaller? I dont plan on buying a better mic anytime soon, so what do you all suggest?

[Red Rockets Glare]

what are you recording on?

[Meriphew]

If you have the $ then I would go for an API/Neve/Great River/Chandler/Crane Song quality pre. Your SM58's and 57's will thank you.

[joel hamilton]

A nice pre will flatter anything you plug into it.
Get the best one you can possibly afford, and it will be a great pre even when/if you expand the mic collection.

[trashy]

I use sm57's and 58's, 2 tapeop overheads, and 1 marshall LDC.

You've got almost the same mic selection as me, and I'm saving up for a big mofo. I think Joel is right (as usual) - a good pre will be good now and great later.

[drummerdan]

Good to know...Its always so hard to judge. Get a great mic, but my mixer is mediocre. Get a new mixer but my recorders (adats) are just ok. Every gear desition seems relative to the rest. I did come across a Boulder pre which I am itchin to use. I'm suffering from "everything sounds dull and clumped together" syndrome. If this pre can liven up the drums, then I just need something to give the bass guitar some "balls." Overheads, guitars and vocals are never my problem. Any suggestions for the bass, whether it be pre or DI (under $200 if possible

[mysteriousmammal]

Bass: SansAmp classic. A winner every time.

[joel hamilton]

If you track lots of things separately, you will benefit greatly from a nice mic pre. I have tracked stuff with JUST a quad of API's, and mixed it on a soundcraft ghost, and it holds up against stuff I tracked on a neve and mixed on a neve or API or SSL or whatever. I have also had to do many different combinations of the two, like track with all ghost board pre's, then mix on a neve VR (ugh), and use really nice outboard EQ during the mix. No matter what, it has to sound good. Do whatcha need to do.

[drliebs]

A friend of mine swears that a 57/58 through nice tube pre is an awesome combo, and he really knows his shit. For a really nice and cheap pre the ART Tube is not bad at all, and for 100 bucks too! Skip the one with the limiter. Stay away from the JoeMeek stuff unless you specifically want it for guitar or drums, they don't fit the bill for vocals or acoustic stuff. To be damn honest with you, the pre's in the Mackie boards are damn fine as well. I have heard suprisingly good things about the marshall mics, but I don't think I would blow my wad on a 1500 pre to use with it. Buy an ATA 4033 and spend the rest of your money on whatever pre you can afford. Just go down to the music store and try them out. Marketing can be decieveing. That is where I went wrong when I bought my Joe Meek. Trust your ears.

[cactus]

i'd recommend the UA610. it's does everything.
the only other "nicer" pres i'd recommend are the Great River MPNVs, and API 312, but i would NOT recommend them as only pres. sure, they're very ballsy and bassy and shimmery, but when everything passes through them, your mix just starts to sound like kiddie hour. in my opinion, anyway.

my advice,
get the MP-1NV or 312 if you can compliment them with another, drier and thinner pre - otherwise, i'd pick the 610.

just a suggestion, tho

[AnalogElectric]

Go here and order the '3D Pre CD', your pocketbook, time, and A/B ears will thank you. One of the best CD's ever made.

http://www.3daudioinc.com/

--Adam Lazlo

[drummerdan]

Thanks for the help friends. My dive into preamp land is a big one. As far as how I track, I do it live. Drums, guits, and bass. Then overdub vocals and guitar leads (and keys if needed). So my main concern to start out is a good pre for the drums, and the bass. I took a look at the sans amp, and its damn cheap on e-bay!
The tough thing about all this, is its all (mostly) relative to a persons tastes. I've heard good things about the Mackie pres but never looked into it. Yesterday I was doing a job (alarm systems) for a guy who had a home studio. It was SO NICE to chat with him about his stuff. He has 2 avalon pre's he likes to use for acoustic guitars, but even with those, he still swore by his Mackie 32*8. He cued up a session he tracked on the Mackie and it sounded great! Then again the 5 neuman mics must have helped!
My main goal is clarity....It was sort of a topic of another post. I want to zero in on my drum tracks and bass track. Like I said, vocals and guitar are never a problem (I'm always recording rock bands).

[jpschust]

i wanna second what the other guys have said about the nicer pres. a really nice pre would enable you to not only use what youve got but also to continue to get some nicer mics as you build up your cabinet, though im always gonna be a firm believer that mics are more important than pres

[joel hamilton]

Mics are more important than pre's only if you have really good mic pre's.

Here is an extreme example:

Try plugging a U87 into a radio shack mixer with an XLR. Sounds like poop.
Plug the same mic into a UA 610, or a Neve 1066, or a sytek, or whatever..API...

All of a sudden people say "wow, that mic sounds awesome!"

A good mic pre will flatter anything you plug into it. I even run entire mixes through my 1272 vintech sometimes to impart some gritty aggressive, but listenable "girth" to a mix.

[AnalogElectric]

Mics are more important than pre's only if you have really good mic pre's.

Here is an extreme example:

Try plugging a U87 into a radio shack mixer with an XLR. Sounds like poop.
Plug the same mic into a UA 610, or a Neve 1066, or a sytek, or whatever..API...

All of a sudden people say "wow, that mic sounds awesome!"

A good mic pre will flatter anything you plug into it. I even run entire mixes through my 1272 vintech sometimes to impart some gritty aggressive, but listenable "girth" to a mix.

Mics and pre's are as good as the person using them. I still record on an old TASCAM 1/8" 4-track cassette once and awhile using a U47 and it sounds AWESOME. I think it's not up to the gear to make a band sound good but it's what someone who knows what they're doing with the gear that counts. If you're plugging a U87 in to a Radio Shack mixer and it sounds like poop, you're not doing your job. I believe in many different factors: the band, what they want, what you have, what you do, what we can get, and have fun. Some of the most satisfying recordings I've done have been simple without 'vanity' gear. If you're not getting the response from people saying, "OMG, that U87 sounds great through a Radio Shack mixer" it's because you've never done that or made the effort to do so. Are you too spoiled to try something that isn't known for being 'the best' monetarily? Have you heard or tried something against common practice based on brand name? Challenge yourself to realize that a ?cheap? mic pre, microphone, compressor can sound good if you know how to use it. There is an art to recording?some don?t have the money to take care of everything in a fail swoop. I think one of the best things I teach people are going with what you have and strive based on your roots. Everything anyone does takes time, trial and error. There are plenty of 4-track recordings done with a handful of SM57?s though Mackie pre amps that sound damn good to me.

I?ll agree that microphone placement have a huge part on what?s going on but to me it seems a little presumptuous to think that a $3000-$30,000 mic will only produce what the final product calls for. Have you A/B?d the MSS-10 against a SSM2017P OpAmp with an SM57? How about an SM57 through a Peavey 6-channel pre-amp directly to tape? Experimentation comes from experimentation.

Okay, I?ve done recordings where people say, ?that sounds AMAZING?.

I have NEVER heard in the last 10 plus years someone say to me (even within the industry) that, ?omg, that MIC sounds awesome?

It didn?t matter what mic I used, mic pre, or EQ. As far as they were concerned it as a whole sounded AWESOME. I?ve owned a lot of top-of-the-line gear but I prefer to use stuff that challenges me, stuff that has variance and character. I might be a minority but yet again I?ve been doing this long enough and have owned some high-priced gear over the years but I keep coming back to less-expensive gear cuz that?s what I like to use and I use it well. Bullcrap if I haven?t heard friends of mine come to me with a digital mix from their home studio where I?ve been asking how they got a specific snare sound or guitar tone?we?re all learning here. There are NO SET RULES. I mentioned the ?3D PRE CD? cuz it examples a same source mic/vocal/snare through different mic pre?s of all types. I?m sick and tired of what ?so-and-so? thinks and I?m sick of wasting money or demo models that disappoint me?I?m an odd cat in regards to recording. The CD?s I have put out speak for themselves. For any of you still thinking they need something to sweeten up this and that just remember that experience is the key. Keep working at it. Learn to love mic and mic placement more so than anything else; no matter the mic or mic pre.

There is no magic trick other than the power within you (understand your equipment).

Do not fallback on convention and learn to discover what works for YOU. People flame this and that gear but does that mean it?s a piece of crap? No. I use plenty of things considered ?crap? but I get compliments on what I do all the time. Work with what you have?. experiments?have fun.

There have been people I?ve worked with and released nationally?do people say, ?it sounded good but the use of a cruddy mic pre didn?t do it for me?? No, NEVER.

Do YOUR thing. If you?re looking for a new mic pre, get the CD I mentioned?it really helps people that are looking to narrow down something within a budget?and beyond. You can even get a sampling of the CD via MP3 without the critical spectrogram listening but to get a taste it?s invaluable.

Microphones are a whole other can of worms. I learned later on how to use them properly. I normally don?t give a flying crap about mic pre?s as long as I stay away from the one?s I don?t like, personally. I have developed different ways of listening based on what I like to hear through the monitors I have, headphones, ?? analog 2 track, and CD burner. It took a long time for me to understand and STAND upon what I believe in?I LOVE CRAP EQUIPMENT!!! Or what others would consider ?CRAP? I consider my lifeline. Sure I?ve owned Manley, Tube Tech, Summit, Neve, SSL, API, and so on but if I was to pick anything I?d love the challenge of a good ol? SM57 through a Peavey line mixer. Bring it on. I AM NOT A PURIST but I have a different perspective. I am NOT TRYING TO BELITTLE OR DISMISS ANYONE ELSE?S VALIDITY OR OPINION, I?m coming from someone that has worked with major label artists. I?m also coming from someone that still believes in the individual artist.

Don?t think that a piece of gear will make you sound like whomever. If anything else you?d find out whether or not you like that gear for application X/Y.

Okay, honestly most ?hands off? sessions I?ve had have been a main performance room. When I went to Pachyderm to record a band that hired me to produce their record I went with the 2nd engineer?s set up at first and then adjusted from there. I brought a lot of my own pre?s and mics cuz I didn?t want it to sound like a Pachyderm recording?(when a band goes to a studio that has a certain ?sound? usually that?s what you get)?so I set up a little more nasty placement based on what was suggested by the house 2nd engineer. He was FLOORED by what I did. He told me it was better than anything he?s heard in that room, ever?including Nirvana?s ?In Utero?, why? I set up a closer raw tone with mics I thought would work, and it did. What did Albini use? Albini used two Neumann CMV563?s in the top corner of the room?sure thing?when I had the drummer play for the band I brought in it sounded too much like In Utero?screw that, it?s Steve?s thing. What did I do instead? A couple of SM57?s equidistant from the set but half of where Steve placed his CMV?s. The 2nd engineer LOVED the sound from that vantage point more so than Steve?s for its freshness. I ran the SM57?s through an Aphex 107 mic pre that I brought with me to the studio, does that make it CRAP?

Perception of sound is subjective and I like to use mics, rooms, mic pre?s, mix, format, and console to my advantage; if that makes me a minority because I don?t think what?s considered ?pro gear? to be ?pro gear? than I am guilty.

F?CK SH!T UP!!! THERE ARE NO RULES!!! Don?t be consumed by consumers. Investigate all possibilities and NEVER SAY DIE!!! We?re all in this together but that doesn?t mean we have to all get along.

Are people really concerned with how just one mic sounds? Isn?t it a picture and/or artist representation captured via a medium? Who?s to say that works for everyone?

Seriously, get the CDs I mentioned, you?d save yourself much more headaches in the long run.

--Adam Lazlo

P.S. I think the Vintech 1272's sound like poop through anything.