Selling out??

[jtienhaara]

looks like there are good opportunities for exposure (less so $$$):

People need to hear of you before you see any $$$.

I agree. Nevertheless, from what I've seen, Mandy's isn't a good place to make money.

Also I think it was basically ignored but my Les Claypool quote above was not entirely facetious. Sweating like Les Claypool did -- that's how people achieve their goals. I know lots of people (maybe even most people) will disagree with me on this but -- I don't believe in luck.

Hard work is what gets you exposure, and patience (not luck) is what gets you opportunities. Sometimes patience takes even longer than a generation!...

Being satisfied with your own fate, "failures" and all, is also a good way to keep from ending up as a cartoon character.

I'm going to tune out now while people flame me with tales of famous people who never worked hard for their money and fame, who were lazy layabouts and just got lucky and were picked off the street by producers who happened to be friends of the family.

Cheers,

Johann
P.S. Don't take me too seriously y'all, I'm just playin'.

[Isolation]

howdy, i'm obviously new here and am trying to put together my own first band (i pretty much am the entire band at this point and plan on staying that way until people want a live act of what i'm about to do) and am just now learning about instruments and the like, especially about electronic gear like samplers and drum machines and such...i got my first bass a half a year ago and have been learning it for a few months now and since i can't find anyone wanting me in their precious little projects (very inbred scene here) i decided to jump headlong into doing this one (industrial rock project) which i hadn't planned on doing until a few punk rock projects later but circumstances have decided otherwise...anyways, enough about my background just so you know where i'm coming from...since i'm still hunting down gear i plan on recording myself in my own home on the cheap and sly...a friend recommended this site to me when i told him what i was up to...

but anyways, i've been reading a book called 'Our Band Could Be Your Life', it talks a lot about the indie scene in the post punk 80's and how it all got started, every chapter is a different band and it talks about how those bands went from the brink of obscurity to the oblivion of MTV-esque fame...it talks about how they got their start as a band and more importantly chronicles their mistakes in what they did when it came to being on a label and moving on to bigger labels, how they got recorded, how they distributed and whom they worked with etc., it's an incredible read and well worth the time spent reading it...i've certainly learned a lot from reading it being the newbie that i am to music...sorry if i rambled a bit...wait, no i'm not...

[Rigsby]

If you throw enough mud, something'll stick, i know this is out of it's regular context, but i still think it's valid, just keep trying and trying and trying. Also, it's amazing who you or your friends meet in their daily lives if you just get out a little. In the past two years, i have met or been introduced to countless musicians, some of whom are playing (for free) on my record, two music publishers in good companies and a bunch of other people who have taken an interest in promoting my stuff, provided new contacts, audiences and venues to play in and so on...

Cut that short as my other half's just come home, time for some dinner, but the list was to continue. Go get 'em cowboy!

[Mr. Dipity]

-As mentioned before read Steve Albini's rant then wonder "if major labels are such a raw deal then why do bands like Sonic Youth, Wilco, Stereolab, etc. stick around when I'm sure they've fullfilled their original contracts by now and they could probably sell almost as many records on a large indie since it's not like there's some huge promotional machine behind them?"

=|:^=

1. They've been signed for really long deals
2. This business is all about who you know and who you've worked with before. Why rock a good thing? Being on a major label might mean better touring revenue - which is where they are probably making thier ends meet.
3. On a certain level you're right. As a friend who signed to several indie labels in a row said in disgust "If you're going to be fucked, it might as well be by a big bastard as a little one" Though I don't think he knew what he was talking about, personally - I think he was expecting his music to sell itself.

[junokane]

On the other hand, I've seen a lot of talentless bands sweat on stage for 1-2 years and get a loyal following. Even though they sucked. (Hope none of my friends are reading this...)

The time is really ripe for the internet superstars. They will not look or feel like the old superstars. Maybe they'll never make any money at all. Maybe they'll make a better living than the Bitch Slap generation, but no-one outside their tiny fan base has ever heard of them.

I've had 3,500+ downloads of songs from my current project's free EP at this point, and a growing mailing list. Am I a rock star yet?

(Let's see - Platinum is a million, Gold is a hundred thousand, so Bronze is ten thousand? What goes below Bronze? :>)

I haven't read this whole thread so maybe I'm guilty of redundency, but I gotta give some big ups here.

I went to Groovetronica's site about a week ago after reading his post on some thread where he said something to the effect of "at this point it's not about making money, it's about getting a fanbase."

Well, this is a key component of a sorta theory I've been developing myself. I suspected that it wasn't original with me -- in fact, it's pretty damn obvious and simple. The sad fact is that most music folks tend to look at the way things have always been done and copy them, never stopping to look at other possibilities. Example: a band I advise from time to time here in Boston wanted to pick my brain about "getting to the next level" (they have a sound fanbase in this market and some solid college airplay, and they recently won a major Boston band contest that gets a lot of attention from the industry, and they keep putting out material, and they have a great live show and now can get a gig in the best club venues in town, and in RI and some in NYC too). Point? They worship (not musically, necessarily, but the journey to fame and superstardom) the likes of Led Zeppelin. They wanted, at the time, to hit the major labels like a hurricane inside of 2 years and grab the brass ring and hang on tight. Thing is, talent and savvy-wise, there's no reason they couldn't. Except for one key thing that I tried to remind them of:

LED ZEPPELIN WAS SIGNED CIRCA 30 YEARS AGO. (not to mention that their members had prior pedigrees and a million other factors).

Point? The industry then and now are almost polar opposites. It's like me saying that I want to make the Olympic sharpshooter team, but using a 200-year-old ball-and-powder musket. The rules have changed.

I've been thinking, what if you put up a killer website with great content that is updated often to encourage folks to come back a lot. What if you include free, downloadable mp3s of every recording you make. What if you just give the music away instead of spending a ton on packaging and manufacture, only to end up giving away a bunch and having the rest collect dust. What if you provide downloadable PDF files of full-color art that can be printed, trimmed, assembled, and stapled into the kind of cd insert that would cost 100s of dollars to have done yourself -- encourage folks to assemble their own cd of your songs. What if you don't sell cds at shows, but instead give away stickers that are eye-catching and have the website url prominently featured. Ditto for a t-shirt, which, if it looks cool, people will buy it even if they hate the band. And it's free advertising.

SSerendipity (Groovetronica) did and does this, or very close to it. See above for his testimony regarding his website.

If you don't have distribution, much of a fan base, and are only selling a handful of cds at shows, why not get the music out there in greater numbers by giving in away? Once you've gotten some stats on your downloads, that will impress some people who then might sign you up, get you a show, or decide to distribute your next recording. Meanwhile, you are doing something that most wouldn't even think of, and it will set you apart. I am behind Sserendipity 100%. Right now, it's all about getting a fanbase. Kudos.

[Dingo]

Your post had made me think of the implications of what you're saying. It seems like you are saying that he should use cd's/recorded music as a loss leader (giveaway) to get people to his show and not look to the recorded medium to pay for itself. Is this accurate?

[dynomike]

Your post had made me think of the implications of what you're saying. It seems like you are saying that he should use cd's/recorded music as a loss leader (giveaway) to get people to his show and not look to the recorded medium to pay for itself. Is this accurate?

I got this impression too... I definately see how this can pay off, especially in exposure for gettin a "deal". But right now, I just multitrack everything myself, and I'm afraid the live shows won't really measure up..

Clearly, I should get a band together (who will work for free..), eat the recording and duplication/distribution costs, and give music away? Maybe thats what has to be done these days, but it seems kinda harsh.

Mike

[Mr. Dipity]

Your post had made me think of the implications of what you're saying. It seems like you are saying that he should use cd's/recorded music as a loss leader (giveaway) to get people to his show and not look to the recorded medium to pay for itself. Is this accurate?

I'm not sure what junkane is suggesting, but my personal strategy is to give away cds/recorded music in order to build a fan base, and also to give away music. Maybe this will be a loss leader, maybe not, but it's only going to be a loss leader on more music.

The whole 'make money by playing live' is flawed; this forum is a case in point. Tapeop is about making recordings - not playing live. A lot of the creative work of our fellows here doesn't translate to a live show. Does that mean that all it should be is some kind of fancy commercial for our live shows? Some music doesn't play well live. Some musicians don't play well live. Some of us are too busy recording to practice playing live. Others would rather have tons of people listen to our music in their own homes, rather than play for a handful of sodden barflies every Tuesday night :>

[jtienhaara]

Oh yeah -- Hey Mike, check out CBC's "Zed" program. Great way to get exposure both on the internet and on TV. From what I've heard it's not too hard to get in the door there either.

I think we're all straying a bit from the original request but the info & debates are still interestin' so... What the hey.

Cheers,

Johann

[Roman Sokal]

Three things come to mind.
#1- Do it yourself. You're in Canada. I'm in Canada. Know the rules. The law of the Canadian music business is that the business won't pay attention to you unless you are a cheap retread of something that sold well in the US last year or unless you're doing well enough on your own to make it worth their while to step in and take a cut. The other law of the Canadian business is don't do business with the Canadian business. Get out of town. You live next door to one of the biggest markets in the world. Take advantage.

you hit the nail perfectly on the head!
i know of so many canadian bands who took the self-limiting stance of wanting to 'conquer canada', so they tour the country like crazy, and sure, get a couple hundred folks to every show, but that's as far as it goes, because it is a much-less populated country, and things stop from there.
and while i'm here, here is a little thing i came across about a great band i know who just quit because they let things get to them- despite yours truly having given them the opportunity to get on great labels, great management etc in the US, which i think would have paid off in the long run- they way i see it, i say jump on the boat if it comes, see the world, play everywhere they can help send you to- even if you owe $ in the end and get dropped, you never really have to actually pay it back. and then all that exposure can get help whatever canuck artist when they do something indie afterwards...
http://www.chartattack.com/damn/2004/06/2505.cfm

[junokane]

My point is that sure, if you can make money doing music, go ahead, BUT

I know very few bands starting out that recoup recording and manufacturing costs from self-produced CDs.

I pointed out Sserendipity's site because I think he's correct in his methods. At this point, marketing, that is, getting the name and music out by any means necessary, is the primary goal. Any money lost is an investment in the future and will be recouped once you have the one thing you don't have now: people who know you and your music and like it well enough to pay for it.

Many bands claim to do this by doing the traditional "make a recording, get a CD made, sell it at shows and consign it to local reocrd shops, give away a ton to radio, etc.", and most of them don't recoup their money, either. So why bother making it a priority? What's more important -- making your money back, or getting your music in the heads of as many people as possible?

Save the money you'd spend on a self-produced CD. Spend some of it on a website where folks can virtually create their own cd by the method described above. Get them hooked. Then, you'll know when you can start charging money for the stuff. Meanwhile, give them something cool to stick on their lunchbox or wear on their back (which they'll do, if it's cool, whether they like the band or not, necessarily) that advertises the website. Start small and grow big. Sooner or later, if it works, you'll outgrow this method, and you'll have the fanbase that will support more money-oriented efforts, like the traditional cd. Plus, by then you may have attract some nice attention from labels, etc., who may be willing to pay for everything (recording, manufacture, distribution).

Please note that this is a theory, and I may be completely wrong. Still, I beleive that there are enough boxes of unsold, dusty cds in band closets worldwide to prove that most bands don't recoup from their initial forays into cd production. So what have you got to lose?

Like Sserendipity said, "At this point, it's all about getting a fanbase."