I would get some cheap mic pres, or a small board, and try to run extra tracks alongside what you are doing now. When I record drums I record a huge number of tracks since I do everything myself & just have to listen on playback since it is hard to get drum sounds while you're sitting right next to them banging on them...
I have some default positions that I know sound good (kick drum mic, snare shell mic, one overhead, all written down so i don't forget) and then I usually put up a bunch of other mics (I have 16 tracks - two tascam DA-38s) and once I have some other tracks I erase the drum tracks I don't want and go from there.
I just record at home, in a "clangy" room that sounds pretty bad, and sometimes have to put mics in the corners or in the closet or in the hallway or in another room to get things to sound good. (I have four sytek preamps and a host of "interesting" ones; some mid-range condenser mics, and some of the cheapo oktavas.)
This is certainly not a professional opinion, but you could definitely set up odd mics all over the place before they even bring in their kit and set it up/mic it up. If you don't have room for a ton of drum tracks, I bet you could get an extra input box (for a DAW) or slave an adat/tascam DA deck to get 8 extra tracks for not a lot of cash.
drew
toothpastefordinner.com
tips on creating depth in your mixes.
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toothpastefordinner
- buyin' a studio
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speaking of depth
beck's sea change does sound pretty nice. check out serge gainsbourg's 'histoire de melody nelson' (1971) to hear what beck based the recording techniques/string arrangements on. speaking of depth and nice stereo imaging...
Re: tips on creating depth in your mixes.
this is a good point. i find that when i hear a great drum sound on a record.
it's because there's room for it. if everything is huge and playing all at the same time, it just makes a big blanket of sound and nothing has room to breathe. that's why the bass sounds so good on sgt. pepper. or john bohnam's drums ect. there's something great about having some air around instruments, and having some dry and right in your face. like the elvis costello records or the first pretenders record. the vocal just sit's right on top. it's a great effect.
it's because there's room for it. if everything is huge and playing all at the same time, it just makes a big blanket of sound and nothing has room to breathe. that's why the bass sounds so good on sgt. pepper. or john bohnam's drums ect. there's something great about having some air around instruments, and having some dry and right in your face. like the elvis costello records or the first pretenders record. the vocal just sit's right on top. it's a great effect.
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soundguy
- ghost haunting audio students
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Re: tips on creating depth in your mixes.
based on or stole from, hmmm...
Sea Change is a cool record, but do you guys like the high end on the record? I was comparing that record to the drum sound on mountain climbing a few weeks ago, both records have the same idea of boxyish drum kits, but the difference in high end info between that record and a late 60's record is pretty intense. I dont personally care for a ton of 10K on hihats and shit, like is all over Sea Change, but this certainly seems to be the trend as of lately on just about every new release I hear. Curious if there are guys out there that really LIKE this. Seems like all my friends just tolerate it. Somewhere along the line I get the feeling that audiences have come to expect a lot of high end info on "pro" sounding records. People always talk about boxy or muddy records, but whats the word for something that sorta sounds cool, but just has so much top end its hard to listen to. Whatever that word is, thats how Id describe that beck record, without commenting of course on the serge arrangements, Can guitar parts and an out of time drummer.
I cant help myself sometimes...
dave
Sea Change is a cool record, but do you guys like the high end on the record? I was comparing that record to the drum sound on mountain climbing a few weeks ago, both records have the same idea of boxyish drum kits, but the difference in high end info between that record and a late 60's record is pretty intense. I dont personally care for a ton of 10K on hihats and shit, like is all over Sea Change, but this certainly seems to be the trend as of lately on just about every new release I hear. Curious if there are guys out there that really LIKE this. Seems like all my friends just tolerate it. Somewhere along the line I get the feeling that audiences have come to expect a lot of high end info on "pro" sounding records. People always talk about boxy or muddy records, but whats the word for something that sorta sounds cool, but just has so much top end its hard to listen to. Whatever that word is, thats how Id describe that beck record, without commenting of course on the serge arrangements, Can guitar parts and an out of time drummer.
I cant help myself sometimes...
dave
Re: tips on creating depth in your mixes.
That's my main limitation - inputs into the DAW. Currently only have 1 delta 1010lt (very happy with it BTW), would like to get another in the future.toothpastefordinner wrote:I would get some cheap mic pres, or a small board, and try to run extra tracks alongside what you are doing now.
- snip -
This is certainly not a professional opinion, but you could definitely set up odd mics all over the place before they even bring in their kit and set it up/mic it up. If you don't have room for a ton of drum tracks, I bet you could get an extra input box (for a DAW) or slave an adat/tascam DA deck to get 8 extra tracks for not a lot of cash.
drew
toothpastefordinner.com
"Artists to my mind are the real architects of change, and not the political legislators who implement change after the fact." William S Burroughs
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JGriffin
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Re: tips on creating depth in your mixes.
>>>this could be better be explained by considering that most DIY'ers with the TapeOp sensibility overdub one thing at a time at home on a DAW- instead of tracking a live band with a 16 to 32 buss console that can allow for multiple ambiance mics/tracks to actually be recorded. Also, perhaps the self-producers of the project don't have the where-with-all or budget to be able to record in a real studio to begin with and therefore never strive to achieve the imminently pleasing production aesthetic of 'real spaces'.
Let me know if I struck a nerve with this...as more and more records we hear on the radio are pro-tooled at home...>>>>>
I don't think you struck a nerve, but I do disagree to some extent, at least in my case. I tend to find that recording at home or on location in non-pro-studio environments makes me think a bunch more about whether to close-mike or play with ambinces or do a little of both, and with up to 16 ins on my 002 I don't have a problem miking, as I usually am just overdubbing one thing at a time in those instances (most of my recent projects haven't involved actual "bands" for reasons too numerous to go into here). And while I agree that a good pro room can sound great, I've also found some dynamite-sounding non-studio spaces as well -- it's an interesting notion you have that "real" spaces only exist in "real" studios.
Let me know if I struck a nerve with this...as more and more records we hear on the radio are pro-tooled at home...>>>>>
I don't think you struck a nerve, but I do disagree to some extent, at least in my case. I tend to find that recording at home or on location in non-pro-studio environments makes me think a bunch more about whether to close-mike or play with ambinces or do a little of both, and with up to 16 ins on my 002 I don't have a problem miking, as I usually am just overdubbing one thing at a time in those instances (most of my recent projects haven't involved actual "bands" for reasons too numerous to go into here). And while I agree that a good pro room can sound great, I've also found some dynamite-sounding non-studio spaces as well -- it's an interesting notion you have that "real" spaces only exist in "real" studios.
"Jeweller, you've failed. Jeweller."
"Lots of people are nostalgic for analog. I suspect they're people who never had to work with it." ? Brian Eno
All the DWLB music is at http://dwlb.bandcamp.com/
"Lots of people are nostalgic for analog. I suspect they're people who never had to work with it." ? Brian Eno
All the DWLB music is at http://dwlb.bandcamp.com/
Re: tips on creating depth in your mixes.
Wow what a great board
I am thrilled by this type of creative thinking- that is getting something good without going out and buying more gear. My work is your average simple one man guitar-bass-vocal-drum (machine,ugh) with the hottest new gear being my VTB-1 and my RNC ! Other than that, its just the Marshall and the SM57, an MXL condenser, and Cakewalk on PC. I just keep reminding myself (alot) to remember the simplicity of George Martin and the other old recordings.
I have nothing meaningful to contribute on this topic, just thought I'd comment
thanks
I am thrilled by this type of creative thinking- that is getting something good without going out and buying more gear. My work is your average simple one man guitar-bass-vocal-drum (machine,ugh) with the hottest new gear being my VTB-1 and my RNC ! Other than that, its just the Marshall and the SM57, an MXL condenser, and Cakewalk on PC. I just keep reminding myself (alot) to remember the simplicity of George Martin and the other old recordings.
I have nothing meaningful to contribute on this topic, just thought I'd comment
thanks
Re: tips on creating depth in your mixes.
seems like we could start a "real vs. simulation" thread at this point. seems superflous since real is real and simulated is...
anyways, one thing that surely gives a lot of inspiration and new wealth to shallow music recording is surely just the sheer amount of stuff one collects.
i for myself have more than ten different types of dictaphones, which, at a certain point, i found to be a great source of new characterful sound.
as long as one takes care of getting the sound on tape or computer in the most advanced way possible and doesn't destroy signal quality further in a later stage, there is complete universes of alternate sounddesign (i guess it already nees to be called like this then) open to tradinional music recording.
i found this issue a matter of taste aswell as fashion, though. getting into using consumer devices and unusual recording methods are not only a fight against the bad sound sometimes, it also tends to confuse your clients 'preconfigured' ears.
janek
anyways, one thing that surely gives a lot of inspiration and new wealth to shallow music recording is surely just the sheer amount of stuff one collects.
i for myself have more than ten different types of dictaphones, which, at a certain point, i found to be a great source of new characterful sound.
as long as one takes care of getting the sound on tape or computer in the most advanced way possible and doesn't destroy signal quality further in a later stage, there is complete universes of alternate sounddesign (i guess it already nees to be called like this then) open to tradinional music recording.
i found this issue a matter of taste aswell as fashion, though. getting into using consumer devices and unusual recording methods are not only a fight against the bad sound sometimes, it also tends to confuse your clients 'preconfigured' ears.
janek
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ideaofnorth
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Re: tips on creating depth in your mixes.
hello to a great board. long time lurker, first time poster.
if i could add one experience i had to the binaural head thread - i had the privilege of recording with Pierre Sprey at Mapleshade studios in maryland a few years back. his recording technique was very simple and effective. suspended in the middle of the room was a prism of plexiglass, on two sides of which were hot glued two customized PZM's. just those two mics to a customized 2-track. the stereo imaging was amazing. I later tried to replicate the idea with a masonite prism and two radio shack pzms, with pretty good success. worth an experiment if you have a couple of pzms sitting around.
best of luck.
if i could add one experience i had to the binaural head thread - i had the privilege of recording with Pierre Sprey at Mapleshade studios in maryland a few years back. his recording technique was very simple and effective. suspended in the middle of the room was a prism of plexiglass, on two sides of which were hot glued two customized PZM's. just those two mics to a customized 2-track. the stereo imaging was amazing. I later tried to replicate the idea with a masonite prism and two radio shack pzms, with pretty good success. worth an experiment if you have a couple of pzms sitting around.
best of luck.
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zentatonic
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Re: tips on creating depth in your mixes.
I've got a ton of new ideas from you guys here!! A lot to think about. Thanks.
One cool thing I've been messing with is using delays in places I would normally use reverbs.
As weird of a delay as I can find - like OhmBoyz - and set the delay with the tempo of the song. Funky stereo effects, left signal with only the echo in the right, etc. With sub-sonic "ghosty" feedbacks going on.
Or using a simple delay (or verb) with an envelope and increase and decrease its intensity at certain highlighted moments in the track.
One cool thing I've been messing with is using delays in places I would normally use reverbs.
As weird of a delay as I can find - like OhmBoyz - and set the delay with the tempo of the song. Funky stereo effects, left signal with only the echo in the right, etc. With sub-sonic "ghosty" feedbacks going on.
Or using a simple delay (or verb) with an envelope and increase and decrease its intensity at certain highlighted moments in the track.
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kayagum
- ghost haunting audio students
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Re: tips on creating depth in your mixes.
This is probably beneath the pro people we have on the board 
But for us low budget recorders, especially those of us who are forced to record direct:
On mixdown, try using a stereo ambient or room reverb program, and imagine all of your channels in the same room. The further back in the room, the more reverb (though just a touch). Pan left and right the instruments as if it was a live band. Most importantly, whatever you think you need, reduce it by 10% (or on the pot, 1 hour earlier e.g. instead of 12:00, try 11:00).
What this will do is a facsimile of a real band in a real room. Ever wonder why those jazz recordings sound great? Or the Cowboy Junkies Trinity Session? It's because they're playing in the same great sounding room at the same time. If that's impossible (lack of room, lack of bandmates), it's still a worthy high bar to recreate. I find it is quite a bit easier to fake this than people realize.
But for us low budget recorders, especially those of us who are forced to record direct:
On mixdown, try using a stereo ambient or room reverb program, and imagine all of your channels in the same room. The further back in the room, the more reverb (though just a touch). Pan left and right the instruments as if it was a live band. Most importantly, whatever you think you need, reduce it by 10% (or on the pot, 1 hour earlier e.g. instead of 12:00, try 11:00).
What this will do is a facsimile of a real band in a real room. Ever wonder why those jazz recordings sound great? Or the Cowboy Junkies Trinity Session? It's because they're playing in the same great sounding room at the same time. If that's impossible (lack of room, lack of bandmates), it's still a worthy high bar to recreate. I find it is quite a bit easier to fake this than people realize.
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cgarges
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Re: tips on creating depth in your mixes.
Man, that's not beneath me at all! That's a great concept. I use it all the time, especially with more natural-sounding small reverbs like the PCM60 and the Sony R7. Of course if you've got an EMT plate around, it works great there too, but what doesn't sound good through those things?kayagum wrote:This is probably beneath the pro people we have on the board
On mixdown, try using a stereo ambient or room reverb program, and imagine all of your channels in the same room.
Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC
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elloweez
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Re: tips on creating depth in your mixes.
So heres an idea I had for a sort of ADD ON to this already very informative message board. Sorry for the lengthy post, but heres where i am coming from...
I am fairly new to recording but am very serious about it. I have recently found the "joys" of recording about a year ago and now am diving headfirst into the mess (love it anyway). Bought my first MS 16 track tape machine, 400b soundcraft board, And alot of outboard gear suggested on this site. It all came with loads of problems, but basically ive become dedicated to the art! Now about a year ago I found Tape Op (thank god), which really is a an AMAZING website for anyone in my situation. All of you regulars (and others) have helped immensly. I am in debt to you all. I also take your advice very seriously, try much of what i read, and am learning alot. Here though, is a suggestion for what i think could improve this website...
I was recently reading the new KICK DRUM thread and came to an idea. Wouldn't it be nice if in the PROFILE section there was a little bit more info on what people WENT FOR in their recordings... sound wise. I realize there are some very diffrent opinions on this board, and I think this is a VERY GOOD thing, but its just that sometimes i would love to understand where people are coming from...again i mean sound wise. Im not really sure how this could be done, but i do know that it gets frustrating reading about what someone considers to be a good "tone/sound", but at the same time having no idea what their refrence point is. I would love to be able to read what someone considers to be a good guitar sound, then read if he is into Nu-Metal, Classic Rock, or lo fi Indie, etc... I'm not sure if this could work, but I have noticed that you Tape-opers tend to have some very focused ideas as to whats good, and i would love to know where you are coming from. Maybe the profile section could have a top 10 list as far as recordings go...or a short list naming favorite examples of best bass, drums, guitar recordings, etc... Just to get in the ballpark of what your going for. Anyone think this is a good idea? anyone have any sugestions?
I am fairly new to recording but am very serious about it. I have recently found the "joys" of recording about a year ago and now am diving headfirst into the mess (love it anyway). Bought my first MS 16 track tape machine, 400b soundcraft board, And alot of outboard gear suggested on this site. It all came with loads of problems, but basically ive become dedicated to the art! Now about a year ago I found Tape Op (thank god), which really is a an AMAZING website for anyone in my situation. All of you regulars (and others) have helped immensly. I am in debt to you all. I also take your advice very seriously, try much of what i read, and am learning alot. Here though, is a suggestion for what i think could improve this website...
I was recently reading the new KICK DRUM thread and came to an idea. Wouldn't it be nice if in the PROFILE section there was a little bit more info on what people WENT FOR in their recordings... sound wise. I realize there are some very diffrent opinions on this board, and I think this is a VERY GOOD thing, but its just that sometimes i would love to understand where people are coming from...again i mean sound wise. Im not really sure how this could be done, but i do know that it gets frustrating reading about what someone considers to be a good "tone/sound", but at the same time having no idea what their refrence point is. I would love to be able to read what someone considers to be a good guitar sound, then read if he is into Nu-Metal, Classic Rock, or lo fi Indie, etc... I'm not sure if this could work, but I have noticed that you Tape-opers tend to have some very focused ideas as to whats good, and i would love to know where you are coming from. Maybe the profile section could have a top 10 list as far as recordings go...or a short list naming favorite examples of best bass, drums, guitar recordings, etc... Just to get in the ballpark of what your going for. Anyone think this is a good idea? anyone have any sugestions?
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elloweez
- gimme a little kick & snare
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Re: tips on creating depth in your mixes.
ok sorry. I am not sure how that just happened, but I meant this post to be a new thread. Anyway check it out if your interested.
Re: tips on creating depth in your mixes. mic placement
Yeah I was recording rhythm guitar yesterday
telecaster-stand alone tube reverb-1954 gibson ga20 [modded w/tweed deluxe transformer] Oktava ml19 ribbon mic -neve 1272-telefunken eq-1176 comp-to tape
I wasn't happy with the sound of the mic really close up
by moving the microphone back from the amp about 2 feet I was able to create a bit of depth but also was able to hear the guitar better..it wasn't so in your face and intense..
I think you want a bit of the room so when you mix you get some realism.
and build a picture of a real band playing in a room...
I'll break this setup down and use a different amp preamp and comp for the melody guitar..
harley
new cd out soon!.
www.harleyfine.com
telecaster-stand alone tube reverb-1954 gibson ga20 [modded w/tweed deluxe transformer] Oktava ml19 ribbon mic -neve 1272-telefunken eq-1176 comp-to tape
I wasn't happy with the sound of the mic really close up
by moving the microphone back from the amp about 2 feet I was able to create a bit of depth but also was able to hear the guitar better..it wasn't so in your face and intense..
I think you want a bit of the room so when you mix you get some realism.
and build a picture of a real band playing in a room...
I'll break this setup down and use a different amp preamp and comp for the melody guitar..
harley
new cd out soon!.
www.harleyfine.com
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