ETHICS: LIVE SOUND: "Hey man, can you turn the vocals u

[cassembler]

Okay dokey, I'm pretty sick of mixing in a room that's 150 feet long and 50 feet wide and the people at the back of the room can't seem to hear the vocals, or _insert instrument here_. [this delimma carries over to almost all of the bars we work at]

Of course, the mix sound great at the dance floor, and in the half of the bar that I'm mixing for. I'm _NOT_ mixing for the back of the room, which is divided however it may be divided.

First of all, I'm a believer in the "reinforcement" side of my job description- I only amplify what need amplification, which ususally consists of kick, bass, guitars, and vocals. Mostly the kick and the vocals. If I need anything else- such as snare (rare), I'll add it, but my goal has always been "quiet as possible, whilst creating a great sounding mix."

So who's right- the people at the back of the bar, who can't hear shit, of the people on the dance floor who's ears will be bleeding if I turn it up any more? Keep in mind that bands usually pay us for single stack systems, not delay towers.

Thoughts???

[moogrock]

agree. fully.

the merch guy is sitting against the back wall where the merch booth is and comes over to me and says 'can you turn the vocals up' -- and i ask him to move closer to the state -- where the throng of people have gathered... .

our mains are on the floor -- so if there is a ton of bodies in front of them there is no vocals in the back of the rooom...

also i love having to explain things to people all the time.
like last night having to explain that the reason there was sooo much cymbals in the mix was becuase the drummer neeeded a really loud vocal mic and instead of side adressing or using it in a way where it would reject sopme of what was behind it he did the over his head style gooseneck stand thing (he of course broght his own as he was rather speciifc about this style) -- but -- in doing it that way he had a ton of cymbals comin in thru it -- basically makin it an ovehead...

also the back wall is a huuuuuuuuuge bass trap (the soundbooth esp -- its rather frustrating) so people in the back also bitch about tooo much bass and stuff...
but all i can say is 'if you care about the show -- move up front'

[Professor]

Um yeah, is there ever a show where people compliment the live sound guy? Where I work, I am running sound for jazz groups in a concert hall that just bellows bass sounds from the stage. Naturally the bass players don't want to use a DI/monitor combo so I have remote control over their stage volume and the bass is up too loud on stage at every show.

As for the complaints at the rock shows, I'm not sure what to say. I mean the goal is to stay diplomatic, but the temptation is to say 'fuck off, I'm the engineer'. I suppose something like "the band wants it like this so more people move up to the front" might work for some people. Other people might respond to "Yeah we really need to bring more speakers next time because it's perfect in the front but a little thin back here." Really I would guage each person and say whatever I needed to for them to head towards the front of the room and away from me.

-Jeremy

[cgarges]

I hear you, totally. (Even if some people can't.)

How much walking around the room do you do? The best live sound engineers I know do this. Like anything else, there's a lot of give and take involved. There's probably a middle ground where it can sound good in a large portion of the room, even if that's at the expense of it sounding great in one spot.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[Everybody's X]

well speaking as the guy onstage, fuck them, the wallflowers in the back piss us off, we arent playing for them anyway. Tell 'em the mix sounds great up front!

[thunderboy]

Line arrays, cass! It's only money.
Or maybe a couple of Meyer Sound Parabolic Wide-Range Sound Beams.

Shut them fukkers up real good.

jt

[jc]

I hear you, totally. (Even if some people can't.)

How much walking around the room do you do?

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

These guy Chris! He is good guy! He is first to say a good and smart thing!

There are a bunch of people in the room for the show and sometimes a people are to come up and say "Our opinion of the sound is this:____".
These people are always right when they say what they think about the sound! This is a statement that is 100% true! People who are to say what They Think about the sound are ALWAYS RIGHT. They are telling you what they think, how can they to be in a Wrong? Is no to make the sense!

Live Mix Engineers here is your moment of truth: People who tell you How to fix it to their liking, they are always wrong! ALWAYS WRONG.
You fix the sound how you fix it. Its a you!

If you are to walk around the room and listen you will to know how it sounds everywhere! You will be thinking of the ways to improve sound for the whole room! You are a good guy! If you are to a stand in your booth and listen you will to know how it is to sound nowhere but in your spot! Your spot is of no matter! You did no even pay to see the show!

belizzimatti!
jcinnito

[Piotr]

I agree with jc and cgarges, I mean you have to get up and take a sampling for yourself of what the room is doing to your mix.

I would also add that it is important to control your EQ tightly as well. Analyze your room and notch accordingly - Shelve a little high end down on the drum OH's and guitars. Don't be afaid to be aggressive with your low mid cuts, but don't kill it either. Don't touch the bass below 63Hz...

Consider some rearfill room boxes on a delay from the FOH...

[jc]

Don't be afaid to be aggressive with your low mid cuts, but don't kill it either.

Don't touch the bass below 63Hz...

I agree with this low mid thing!

so do you mean 'dont touch the bass' as in: you think the bass frequencys below 63 should be left alone or bass freq below 63 shouldnt be dealt with and shld be lopped off? or are you talking about bass guitar? i dunno.

thanks!

[endofanera]

When I read the title of this thread, I thought it was gonna be whether or not one should actually adjust the sound based on what the folks on *stage* say to you. Y'know, that thing they typically do after they ask the people who are standing right in front of them, between the FOH stacks and below the sidefills, the ones who are not in the right place to hear anything but kickdrum and guitar, what it sounds like "out there." "Hey soundman, can you turn up the vocals," a request to which "Uhm, but theyre way loud enough, Mr. James Dio," would be the honest answer. Of course, my usual response has been the old thumbs-up-smile-and-touch-the-board-while-moving-nothing. That's more of an ethical question, the undying "is deception that's in their best interest the right thing to do?"

I too agree with jc and cgarges; it bothers me when I see sound engineers who dont move around the room at all. Once I get things more or less happening, that's usually the next move -- take a tour of the room and try to make sure that just about everyone is hearing more or less what I am.

[A.David.MacKinnon]

I work in a club that sounds very close to what you're talking about. At the back of the club all you could hear was bass and kick. To fix this we put in smaller speakers midway down the room pointing towards the back. The rear speakers are on a delay (about 2.6 ms) and have all the lows cut out of them. They reenforce the high end at the back of the club.
It's not a 100% fix, the back of the club sounds a little wierd, but it mkes a big difference.

[moogrock]

walking around is of the upmost importance.
there are two or three different spots that i check from to make sure its a nice even mix.
all soundbooths are pooooorely placed and give you the worst verion of whats actually going on out there....
walk walk walk!

[Roboburger]

Um yeah, is there ever a show where people compliment the live sound guy?

I get complements all the time.

Don't just walk around the room at showtime. Show up twenty minutes early and clean off the stage. The set up a mic and listen to the monitors. It is not all that unoften that I get to a club and notice something screwy when i do this- a monitor horn blown, or a lot less signal getting to another. and during soundcheck, get up on the stage and listen. talk to the band members if there's anythign that concerns you, invite the artists to talk to you, and they will tell you things. It'll also raise their confidence in you and themselves.

Make it sound the best you can, the best that the laws of physics can allow, and then if someone in the crowd says "I can't hear the vocals" you know what you do? thank them for the input, and then actually go turn up the vocals. I know that it might not be what i artistically prefer- I hate the vocals to be too loud- but I'm not a paying customer, and that guy/gal is. They're at the club to have a good time, not to be berated by some soundguy about what is correct. Often, that person is friends with the band and will report that "The soundguy is cool. He wasn't a dick when I talked to him." after the show. Which the reply from the band guy will be "Yeah, he was great during soundcheck, too." Wheter or not I think it sounded great or if the guy can sing or the band sucks is not even my concern. making people happy, and glad they came to that bar to spend money is. Making musicians and their fans comfortable, both sonically and socially, is what the job is all about. I've made a decent living and seen a lot of the world over the last ten years. Best of all, I've made lotsa great friends- all because I keep my cool and try to support what is going on, not direct it.

(okay, occasionally I do direct things with a dirty trick or two. Got a guitar player that's just too damn loud? put his guitar back into his monitor. When he says, "Is my guitar in the monitor?" say, "No, Lemmy, that's bleed - turn down a bit and that'll go away." make sure to turn it down if he goes to tap the mike. If he doesn't turn down, try creeping it up in everyone else's mic until they yell at him. That's always fun.)

back to the topic. If you have a PA set up correctly, you should be able to adjust the volume and eq out front without hurting the monitors. It's not too tough to do, and not all that expensive, either. anyone can email me if ya want tips, dirty tricks, or just to shoot the shit. I love my job and want others to love their job, too. Life is good.

[the dice]

hey.

did you guys ever do monitormixes?



i did that when i started around in the "business".

and i am telling that people whining or saying you what to do FOH is nothing compared with the shit you get there.

I HAVE A SHITLOAD RESPECT FOR MONITORMIXERS!

[rhythm ranch]

Make it sound the best you can, the best that the laws of physics can allow, and then if someone in the crowd says "I can't hear the vocals" you know what you do? thank them for the input, and then actually go turn up the vocals. I know that it might not be what i artistically prefer- I hate the vocals to be too loud- but I'm not a paying customer, and that guy/gal is. They're at the club to have a good time, not to be berated by some soundguy about what is correct. Often, that person is friends with the band and will report that "The soundguy is cool. He wasn't a dick when I talked to him." after the show. Which the reply from the band guy will be "Yeah, he was great during soundcheck, too." Wheter or not I think it sounded great or if the guy can sing or the band sucks is not even my concern. making people happy, and glad they came to that bar to spend money is. Making musicians and their fans comfortable, both sonically and socially, is what the job is all about. I've made a decent living and seen a lot of the world over the last ten years. Best of all, I've made lotsa great friends- all because I keep my cool and try to support what is going on, not direct it.

I love my job and want others to love their job, too. Life is good.

Hey Robo,
Excellent post. Kudos to you sir! Thank you.
Mark