help me deshittify my kick sound

[seriousbusinessmusic]

OK --- here's the oldest question in the book...the problem that has plagued novices and apprentices and almost-theres since the beginning of recorded sound...so i don't expect a pat-n-dry instruction manual answer. but here goes:::: why does every kick drum i've ever recorded sound like ass?

let me run down my routine and then you all can tell me what i'm doing wrong.
the drum i record 95% of the time is a 22" DW outfitted w/ powerstroke3batterside head and an ambassor on the resonant side. the drums always tuned well and it sounds good in the room and i'm generally pleased with it. as far as muffling goes i usually just lay a beach towel in there touch a little on both heads. there's usually a 4-5" hole off-center in the resonant head.

micing--- i use the shure beta 52. does this mic suck? i put the grill in the hole and manuever it inches in and out til it sounds decent.

i'm recording to protools. i usually don't use EQ and compression until the mixing stage.

during mixing i'll generally take out 11or 12 dB of 200-400Hz at a 1.5Q or so to get rid of the fat. then i'll find a decent attack frequency (usually somewhere around 1.7k) and boost 3-8dB there. lastly i'll usually find sometihng down low to boost. then i'll ram the digirack compressor on there (usually the tight kick preset with a bit of a slower attack). sometimes i'll use something more beastly like the fairchild660 plugin frombombfactory.

this is just the most common procedure but i've tried everything. i just can't get the kick drum to sound right ... it's either too woofy or too clicky or just just buried beneath the bass and guitars and i can't seem to remedy this situation. what am i doing wrong?

[Flight Feathers]

let me preface my reply with saying that i am no expert, and most of the time i am only mildly pleased with the kick sound. but i have gotten good kick sounds in the past, and here's what works for me.

you said the drums sound good, so that's the first thing. next big thing is mic placement. i find you NEED 3 people to do this right. one to play the kick, one to move the mic, one to knob fiddle and listen in the control room. have the person move the mic anywhere and everywhere. there is a sweet spot and it's not where you think it should be. that's probably where all you problems are originating. listen in the control room and be ready to yell "stop!". last time i did this, the mic was a foot away pointing at the floor. i was like what the fuck, but go figure, if it works it works. get it right to tape, and you won't have to eq.

if you need to compress, try mixing that original signal with the compressed signal by setting up a comp on the aux send.

good luck
ayan

[eeldip]

huh.

hard to tell. that 12db cut at 200-400 sounds scary to me though. doesnt that mic already cut out like 6db from this range?

have you thought about using a less tone shaped mic, and less eq? maybe like an re20... it seems to me like you are overthinking the kick.

personally, i went through 3 different kick mics until i settled on one that fit my style and signal path and ears. do you have friends with mics you could borrow?

[cassembler]

No, cutting 12+dB at 200-400 is a very common technique, especially in the live arena. What scares me a bit though is you boosting, especially at the low end.

I typically use a 31-band and a decent compressor/ gate at the tracking stage (always in live sound). I'll yank out almost everything from about 250 to 1k or so, but I ONLY depend on my kick mic for thump and attack*, getting the body from my room mics and overheads.

Even without EQ, a gate and a compressor can shape the tone a LOT more than most people give them credit for. Then again, most people set the attack time to "as fast as possible" and just assume it's ok. Try applying some decent squish (2-5dB or so) and play with the attack knob- this will eliminate your need to boost at the 6k range. The gate can effectively shape the decay of the kick, and help remove a lot of the low-end "muck."

But above all else, don't fuck with the kick (or any channel for that matter) by itself. Try to solo, say, the kick, bass, and overheads, and THEN mess with the kick channel.

Also, try sidechaining a compressor on the bass with the kick. Should help the two mingle better.

$.02

[Everybody's X]

You need to try the d-112 man,
I definitely agree about the 3 man crew for finding the sweet-spot, I really think a whole lot of it is mic placement. I recently got a kick sound I was really happy with and the only difference was moving the mic an inch or so off-axis from the beater compared to where I normally have it.
I also use "pas" eq to monitor the frequencies that I am actually capturing, and I can compare that to other kicks sounds that I know sound great.

of course I am an amateur myself
hope that helps

[dynomike]

sounds like you're eq-ing too much... if its too boomy, loosen the batter head. if its too clicky, tighten it.

8-12 db of cut is a LOT, considering that mic is already a little scooped at 400.

[Slider]

Try a D112 inside and a LDC or a subkick outside.
I do the old cut the low mids on the inside mic. boost a little 4-6k and mabey some bottom.
and I don't mess with the outside mic to much.
Kick drum is one thing I don't squash a whole lot.
just enough to give it some focus.
I'm not a fan of the beta52.
It's one of the only shure mics I don't like.
It sounds like your on the right track.
just keep messing with it and you'll get there.

[cgarges]

Hmmmm. No one's suggested reversing polarity on the way in yet. Shame.

Does it sound like ass soloed and with all the kit mics in? If so, there's something besides phase issues happening as well. Personally, I can't stand the Beta 52, but plenty of people like it and use it. I find it to be a pretty "clicky" (as you described it) mic.

A 12dB cut at 200-400 is a little strange, but I assume you're doing that because it sounds right. (But if it sounds right, we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we?) I think that taking out too much below 400 could lead to some weirdness in a lot of situations. Most of the time, I find myself cutting at 400 or slightly above. (400Hz on an API 550A is just rockin.') That should remve any "boxiness," but if you don't have any boxiness going on, then don't worry about it.

At any stage of the game, the drum should at least sound decent. If it doesn't, think about what it needs or doesn't need and adjust accordingly. For example, mic to preamp to tape. Make sure it's phase coherent with the other mics. Now what? Does it sound funny? Okay, move the mic around. Get it to sound it's best and again, in phase. Now what? Still need some EQ tweaks? Okay, do so and get it to sound it's best. Is the playing inconsistent? Apply some compression, but be careful about this. Too much of the wrong stuff can really make your bass drum mushy. Chris Lord-Alge talks about compressing until you just start to hear it add a bit of ring to the drum, then backing off. I think this is smart and I've had good results doing this. Also remember that it's perfectly okay to leave some room for somewhere to go in the mix.

Hope this helps.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[joel hamilton]

Phase. Phase. Phase.

Everything chris said, AND:

Phase. A better mic pre.
Less EQ, or more in the right places. Experiment. Have fun. See how the sound you ARE getting fits in the mix. Flatter the kick sound you ARE getting rather than dwelling on what ISNT happening to begin with. Do whatever you have to do to make it right, whether it is a six man crew, an hour working on phase issues, a mic choice, a mic pre, more experience, whatever.

Be patient, because I swear to god it gets easier. Enjoy the process, and all of a sudden you are three albums into it, and you are actually enjoying yourself.
I am a weirdo, but I swear you develop a relationship with your gear. You start to understand what you can ask of your 52, and it will do it for you.

Whatever. I am too tired to get all metaphysical about this. I am just going to catch hell for it anyway...

[jc]

Make sure it's phase coherent with the other mics.
. . ..

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

chris and joel nail it squarely i think.. phase.

while line chekcing: pan each of yr drum mics to one side (L or R) of yr monitors and solo them one at a time with the kick drum. does something suddently sound fucked? maybe the OH or snare or amb or a tom mic is effing the whole thing up. . .

i never have a prob with kck drum. i like 2 mics. i use cheap shit too. also i'm drunk so heres my recipe: ATM25 (poormans re20) on the outside head, real fucking close. if you really care, stick your ear next to the head and find a spot that zounds good, even if theres a hole in it . sm57 on the inside head (from inside or outside the shell, couldnt care less) point it where the beater hits the head. run yr RNC as a ducker (off of snare drum allthe way 20db gain redux) on the inside kck mic. mix to taste and print to one track. if yr rich or have a lot of time to kill print to two tracks and deal later.

[penrithmatt]

yes to all the above.....however,if you still have problems when it comes to mixing.......
1.try multing the kick into two channels.use one to get the lows and the other to get the mids and highs.i've had to do this when mixing tracks cut by other people and it can work pretty well with even the most badly recorded kick.i tend to use the filters in a drawmer gate to roll out the highs on one and the lows on the other.by compressing the high channel you can get a nice snappy attack,with the other channel giving you the thump.
2.get a sans amp.send the kick to it.flip the phase of the sans amp.how much sub does you kick have now?? blend the two things together.
3.don't put the mic in the kick shell.make a tunnel out of packing blankets,with the mic about a foot back from the front head.
4.put up a "stupid mic". i've been using the green bullet,through the bitrman.stick it kinda between the kick and snare.it'll sound all fucked up on it's own,but blending it in can give you definition in the kick.........
5.put a U47 by the drummers head.compress slightly.take all your other mics down and enjoy the natural balance and sound of a real kit played by a real human in a real room.......
cheers
matthew
www.allairestudios.com

[A.David.MacKinnon]

Penrithmatt's right with the stupid mic idea. I use a RCA crystal. It goes on the floor between the kick and snare pointing up at the snare. Sounds like shit on it's own but great when mixed with the rest of the mics.
Another cool mic that no one's mentioned is the trusty RS PZM. I put it inside the kick on the damping towel. It can sound huge.

[trashy]

Whay are there two threads of this from the same poster?

[wing]

don't know if this thread may be of any help to you, but thought i'd post it anyway: http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopic.php?t=7946

maybe you'll learn something hearing the evolution of my kick sound...