A philosophical question on compression

[j.hall]

it's all multing and blending

So, you generally will run tracks that you want processed together to a buss and comp that? Then, blend in with the originals?

kinda

first off....my compression techniques are dependent on the genre of music i'm doing....and even more so, what is happening in each song......

but i'll break it down as if i'm doing a loud rock mix.....that's typically going to be the extreme

currently i'm mixing on an amek mozart.....

i will take the signal straight from tape (via the tape return patch point), which doesn't break the signal to the console tape input

i'll go to the comp i want.....and return it to another rail on the console
i'll blend those sounds together, to taste and move on

i try to do all the blending while a good portion of the mix is up.....as a mixer i've always said, soloing only helps you trouble shoot, you can't possibly make critical decisions while soloed.....

from there i will buss all the drums down to a stereo buss and compress that
some times i'll return that compressor to the console to blend in, some times i won't.....(almond joy or mound....you know)

this is how i will treat the entire mix

everything thing gets multed, the mult gets compressed and EQ'd if need be, blend those two, buss everything down, and compress that.....then it all blends into the master fader and that typically gets compressed as well

this is the extreme example....when i say everything gets compressed.....i mean EVERY TRACK, EVERY BUSS

if you are going for the andy wallace, terry date, adam kasper sound....you have to squash the crap out of the mix......

dave and i have discussed this moderately........modern hard rock is completely smashed, more then you think it is....

the only depth you get is from reverb at that point

this is one reason why mastering has become so INSANE.....the mixes are showing up crushed already....

[soundguy]

ha! The last record I mastered was an eye opener for me. The ME and his assistant both looked at each other and laughed, they were like, "whoah, you can see the wave" and joked, "hey, look at the 2 track, the needle is moving".

Apparently, the waveforms on most commercial material he gets (and he's one of the biggest MEs in LA) are just blocks, no sign of a beat or anything. If you are delivering a master that is THAT compressed, I dont know about that, kinda defeats the purpose of mastering in a lot of ways.

Ah shit, did I just open that can of worms again?

dave

[j.hall]

Ah shit, did I just open that can of worms again?

dave

you most certainly did

and that's all i'll say about it!

[djslayerissick]

lately, i love the sound of blindly setting my compression to minimal attack, minimal release, and about 10:1 compression. i always start from there and tweak until it sounds right. and that goes for just about anything, from plugins to my crappy Alesis 3630, to guitar stomp boxes.

for live performance, i love the sound of my vocal run through the alesis 3630 at .1 attack, 50msec release, 20:1 compression, 19 dB gain, soft knee, peak. the over usage of compression colors the sound a lot, adds way too much low end no matter how i adjust it. to add some sizzle, some MORE limiting (and who knows what the hell else it adds - probably a lot of phase ridiculousness and distortion) - i then send the vocal through a (GASP) sonic maximizer.
i've never sounded better live. i run a lot of tripped out effects on my vox before the compressor and my enunciation used to get lost in the wash of sound. now its clear as a bell.

[Al]

Some of these cheap Behringer compressors inflict a really nasty tone on your traks..yuk!.

Compression is cool when it's used right,but too often sounds shit on a lot of the stuff you hear on radio,compressed at mix,compressed at mastering,and when it's getting pumped over the airwaves as well!!...compression central going on there!!

[djslayerissick]

when it comes to compression "color", think about this:

take a sine wave. now start compressing the living daylights out of it. you start to "square off" the wave form and it begins to lose the smooth curve that defines a sine wave.

now compare this to the way a guitar amplifier works in the gain staging. it takes the normal wave form and makes the waveform begin to resemble a square wave.

hmmmmmm

[Professor]

Interesting suggestion about the square-waving of your signals, but if that were the case then the resulting sound should be brighter and edgier since square waves generate more even harmonics about the fundamental pitch.
There is definitely something that goes on in the psychoacustic realm when using a compressor, and we all seem to be skirting around it, but we're slowly drifting off instead of focusing in. So, airplay sheen and personal techniques aside, why do compressors typically make a track sound warmer. And part of that original question asked if there were any neutral compressors. I have found that the DSP compressors on my Yamaha DM-2000 consoles are very neutral, and really hard to spot at all. I typically only use them at light settings, so I've not pushed them too far. When I want character I go elsewhere, but even the very clean DSP compressor there can feel warmer - and I know it is not a marketing tool, so what is going on.
I am not sure, but I'll take a shot.

Consider what a compressor does. Yes it controls the dynamic range, and yes it does so by turning down the loudest parts. But really it is more often used to turn up the soft stuff, not to turn down the loud stuff. We see a track peaking at 0dB but its average is too soft. We compress it so the loudest peaks that were landing at 0 now land at -10. Then we turn up the entire track with the 'make up gain' so the loudest peaks are right back where they started, at 0dB but the track's average volume has increased by 10 dB. The loudest stuff hasn't been turned down but the softest stuff has been turned up.
Why would that be warmer?
Amplifiers definitely come into play here, especially tube or transformer based amps. And certainly most VCA compressors don't come off as warm as other types, but they still have something. The amplifier sections give individual brands and models their character, but they do not account for the psychoacoustic phenomenon. So where is it coming from.
We are turning up the soft stuff, and maybe that has something to do with it. What is down in that 'soft stuff'. Room noise, ventilation, vibration - sure, but I don't think that is it. I have noticed that high frequencies tend to decay faster than low frequencies, and certainly they do not build up in reverberant fields the way lows do. Perhaps when we compress and bring the soft stuff up, we are turning up the volume on the sustained and decaying sounds following the notes, and the highs are the first ones gone, so the lows are the only ones left to be turned up.
Again, I am not certain, but it seems like a good theory. Any mastering engineers want to chime in since they are typically using multi-band compressors to help tame the frequency imbalances?
It might be interesting to experiment with a track alternating between uncompressed and severly compressed and watch a Real Time Analyzer to see if indeed the frequency is tilting a little.

Whatever the reason, I know there are psychoacoustic effects to using compressors. I use them in the Classical and Jazz recordings because I like to move instruments to the front of an ensemble and then I sink them back by taking away the compression, or adding reverb. I can hear it and feel it, and I rarely go past a 2:1 ratio - though that is with the threshold set way down in the -25 to -30 range. Is the addition of more low frequency information a contributor to the sense of moving forward in a mix?

What are some other thoughts as to what might be going on.

-Jeremy

[joel hamilton]

In my humble experience...

I meet people who say weird things like " I dont like compression"

Or , "I think people over compress" or conversely, "I love this compressor, you cant even hear it!"

When I hear their finished product, it sounds just like the other guy that said " I hate 700 Hz, I just dump it out of the kick...Blah blah blah..etc"

BORING.

Then I find out they are strapping two unlinked 160XT's across a mix buss, or even worse, some alesis compressor spanking the crap out of a bass!

To me, That is like trying to build your dream house with a tweezer, and a broken jigsaw, then deciding you "dont like carpentry" or that "nails are overrated."

Retarded.

Compressors, Expensive,cheap, broken,awesome,crappy... They are in one category of tools available to us to make interesting sounds, Not unlike the right saw or hammer or drill.

Enjoy the character of each, and decide for yourself what the right tool for the job is.

Oh, and stop wondering about it and hit record!

[Al]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!!!

[bobbydj]

Professor, did you see jajguy's post on page 1? I'm getting a lot of similar theories - I was just wondering if you're both thinking along the same lines. I.e. a lot of the less harsh, lower tones tend to hang 'behind' or 'below' the stuff that we notice first. And, very crudely, compression tends to make the race a bit more even - hence why there's a tendency for compression to generally colour on the 'warm' side (regardless of brand, etc).

At any rate, this thread has been great so far. But then I love all sorts of philosophical questions.

It was also interesting to read that Brian tended not to use compression for years. For whatever reason I was really down on compression for ages too. What changed me was when I started tracking bass here at home. Even though I was trying to even-out my playing (fingers, Prec copy, trad low-end sort of sound) I was getting shite results. Nothing anywhere near the bass sounds you hear on records, etc. So I tried compression. And all I had was the worst compressor ever - I'm talking a circuit that makes the Composer Pro look like a Drawmer '69. But straight away the bass was 100 times as good, and I was converted to compression right there. I agree that over-compression is FM MOR hell. Nevertheless, the difference between my comp'd and un-comp'd bass made me realise more than anything how crucial it can be. So reading about the science of it is ace (sines battered into squares, tops ganged up on by lows, etc etc).

[jajjguy]

I like to use compression, but like brian i didn't use any for a number of years. I think that was great training in how to play and sing for recording. I struggled to even out my playing, to strengthen the sustain of notes and shape phrases more carefully, to be more aware and deliberate about where to put volume bursts. Now that i use compression, i've noticed that i can get away with being sloppy about controlling my playing and singing volume, but that it sounds much better when i get it right, because then i don't need as much compression, and the loud bits are being compressed harder, which is usually good for the sound.

I agree that compression helps get the "right" tone for certain instruments, and bass is one of them. But the struggling you (bobbydj) did with your playing was probably also helpful, right?

[bobbydj]

Absolutely. But I'd play a very different style live - it would be much more about attack, e.g. But when that record light is on (and there's compression on the go) I rully, rully hold back. Perversley when I've finished it often sounds far more aggressive for this. Needless to say I wish I'd known a shit-load more about the science of compression in earlier bands when I was playing bass.

[j.hall]

Needless to say I wish I'd known a shit-load more about the science of compression in earlier bands when I was playing bass.

hind sight is 20/20

and education takes time.....

regret is a waste of time....