drop some upright bass recording knowledge on me please

[donkingshair]

I've only recorded one upright in the past and got ok results. any tips? here's my humble mic locker: oktava ml52, neumann tlm-103, matched rode nt5's, akg d112, akg c418's (x3), sennheiser 421, 2 57's and a 58. my humble mic preamps: 6 mackie xdr's, sytek mpx-4a (two channels with jfet option) and the stock pre's on my soundtracs topaz console. looking for a decent, natural sounding tone. room isn't great, also isn't terrible.

[soundguy]

I would first try the 103 way the hell up close where the fingerboard separates from the body of the bass. I generally tape a lavalier to the bass and then fill with a bigger condenser further back, but for only one mic, I'd try the 103, you can also see if the 421 will do more good than bad on that combo.

Use your ears. you can make a fine recording with those tools.

dave

[joel hamilton]

with that mic selection I would put the 57 wrapped in foam in the bridge, and put the tlm 103 a foot back from the F hole and run the 103 hotter(both with the syteks, though) and compressed to tape, season, and serve.

[brian beattie]

I've heard of that 57 wrapped in something trick. I think that's how they did the bass on van morrison's moondance.
The ml 52's gotta be a contender. many folks with ribbons will always record upright with ribbons. I love 'em out from the bridge a bit (6", a foot or 2...)
and, if the playing or the part's not too clanky (whackin strings on the neck) you can mic up near the neck, below where it joins the body.
I've had luck with a sensitive condensor pointing right at the shoulder of the instrument, where the "top" (or front) of the bass meets the side. There's alot less volume there, but you can get real good midrange "voice".
whatever you do, DON'T CRAM A CONDENSOR INTO THE F-HOLE.(as much as you might like to cram things into f holes) That's a common mistake. massive bass, no articulation.
If you focus (with placement and mic choice and playing) on getting a good midrange tone, you'll be able mix it more easily.
brian

[Professor]

I record quite a bit of upright bass since we tend to do alot of jazz recordings at the school. I know I'll get grief about this, but I typically will run through a DI box into our ProTools system and hit the bass with an LA2A plug-in during mixing. Most of the time the students don't have very good basses so their natural 'tone' isn't so great. The catch is that you would need the bass player to have a pickup. If he does, use it with a DI box - active ones are better for catching the whole sound.
For microphones, my absolute favorite is an RE-20 about 8-12 inches from the f-hole pointed in towards the base of the bridge. Yeah, I know you don't have an RE-20 in your collection, but it is my favorite. With a good sounding bass I use the DI and the RE-20 so I get the high-end detail from the pickup and the body of the mic, and then I pan them out slightly to create a wider bass in the mix. Nice.
Before going through all of your mics, I would say that you would generally do best to have a large diaphram mic on the bass and your general aim is going to be around the f-holes and the bridge because that is where the body of the sound is. I tend to avoid getting too close to the fret board since it gets noisy there and the pick-up will catch that stuff if I want that noise.
So from your cabinet, I would probably stear away from the MD-421 since it's too edgy and bright, the SM-57s and 58 will not really get a nice low end, and the C-418s are way too small - leave them on the drums. The NT5 pair might be interesting if you have time to experiment, but I'm not sure they would get enough of what you want from an upright bass, and they'll get too much of what you don't want. Certainly the D-112 is a possiblity, if you're not using it on the kick drum. I've never really liked the D-112 as much as the older D-12 but it is worth a try, up very close since it's dynamic and the SPL drops quickly with an acoustic bass.
That leaves the TLM-103 which has had some props already and the Oktava ML52. I've not tried my 103s on bass, though given their response on piano and other instruments, I'd be concerned about getting a lot of high end without the warmth and depth you want on bass. I would whip out that ribbon mic and get in about 8-12 inches off the f-hole pointing ever so slightly upwards and inwards to catch the sounds of the fingers popping. Run that through whatever micpre does best with it - possibly the stock Soundtracs pres. If he has a pickup then run a DI as well to get the high frequency detail. The ribbon mic should settle into the mix very nicely with very little tweaking compared to the labor of EQ and compression you'll need with a condenser mic.
So if you can manage it, try out the ribbon mic. I would suggest having the Oktava, the Neuman 103 and maybe the D-112 all setup before the bass arrives so you can give them a quick listen and then put away the ones you don't want. You may decide to use two if you have the track space, but I think the ribbon should be one of them. Now I'm all excited and I'm going to have to pull out my RCA 77 for the next bass recording.
Let us all know how it turns out.

-Jeremy

[joel hamilton]

Brian nailed it with the Midrange suggestion.

My partner has been a bass player a long time, and when I capture the growl just right....

That is a real bass sound.

anyone can make it sound like a big wooden box with strings on it.

The mid's define it as an expressive instrument.

[donkingshair]

I'm noticing a trend in these posts that incorporate some type of balancing the bass with the mids. for example soundguy using a lavalier and a distant mic. 57' on the bridge and a distant mic. DI and a re20, etc. I realized that i'll be tracking drums and upright at the same time so i'll lose the nt5's (for overheads) d112, c418's, 421 (floor tom) and 57's. I had a strange idea: how about a m/s setup: (i have the waves m/s decoder) the ml52 as the figure eight and the tlm103 as the center which might be good for picking up the direct sound, i.e. the bright "finger" aspects of the bass. perhaps the whole array out about 3-4'? p.s. I talked to a tuba player the other day that knows the dude who does live sound for the dirty dozen brass band, he records the tuba by dropping a wrapped (in toilet paper) '57 into the bowels on the horn. (i.e. down through the bell to where it starts to curve) Also I have had good success with the re-20 and sm-7 on electric bass. The bass player does have a pickup and I have a couple of stewart active direct boxes. The bass player has a really kick-ass sounding upright. Nice and deep, but defined at the same time. I'm a jazz trumpet player so I have quite a familiarity with decent sounding uprights.

[brian beattie]

you should try that m/s, but I find that the solidness and foundation like quality of the bass is what anchors the total sound. A stereo bass COULD end up seeming a little diffuse. If the stereo bass lacks focus in the mix, simplify a little and try one mic.
brian

[jrsgodfrey]

I'm with Joel's technique (foam cone, mic pointing up under the fingerboard), but try it w/ your small diaphragm condenser, too and see if you don't get more "finger" articulation on slower material. I've had great luck with that. It's also great if you need isolation.

So much depends on the instrument.

[j.hall]

The mid's define it as an expressive instrument.

that's because the actual speaking voice of a bass is around 500 Hz

if you can't get some clarity out of that range, the actual notes the guy plays will be hard to hear.......

for me, the hardest part about EQing low mids is knowing when you've taken out too much......or not enough

it's a really tough range to grasp....for me at least, we all hear differently
tchad blake gets the sickest upright sounds i've ever heard.......check out a sould coughing record......

[joel hamilton]

That is because Sebastian sounds like that when you are standing there listening.

Same thing with yuval's kick drum (and drums in general) he just plays that way.

I put up 4 mics to record him, and he lets the beater off the head even when going fast, and the old ludwig he has just sounds great.

Sebastian is just an amazing player in general. I recorded him the way JSG was talking about above.

[j.hall]

That is because Sebastian sounds like that when you are standing there listening.

i saw them live a few times and he sounded nothing like that.....i believe you.....since i wasn't standing right next to him.....but tchad has so much compression and EQ on the bass sound it's silly

Same thing with yuval's kick drum (and drums in general) he just plays that way.

again.....that's totally believable, but the drum sounds on those soul couhing records changes drastically every song.......and where different drums and mics will capture all those raw tones.....you just don't get that sort of sound with out loads of compression and EQ

the way those guys attack their instruments is the signature....but the overall HUGENESS of those records is a total studio creation

[DoubleDownSound]

At TapeOpCon 2002 I asked Tony Visconti if he had any tips for recording the doghouse bass... his advice "use a microphone"

[joel hamilton]

Jhall,

True with the "audio creation" part,

but using the tools available to us in the studio does not make someone sound like yuval, or sebastian...

Tchad used a kick drum mic (fet 47) and a binaural head to record yuval on almost every song on "el oso."

I know what you are saying, but without a great source.....

I just know that the first time I mic'd up yuval's kit, I freaked at how MUCH the signal was simply his style. his kick, and his snare sound a lot more(in the studio)
like what you hear on their records than you would think.

-Just my experience. I have tracked him a bunch of times...

[j.hall]

no man, i totally believe you.....you can hear it in the attack of his playing

how he strikes the kit and approaches his playing.....same with sebastian....

i was just trying to make sure that the more "inexperienced" guys reading this wouldn't think that all there is to it is mic placement and mic selection, because that is simply not true

the amount of cmpression and EQ tchad uses to get that MONSTER lowend and sustain is SICK......

what makes it even sicker is that he maintains the signature feel and sound of the players while completely manipulating and bending the audio to his will

i completely believe you!!!
sorry for not clarifying my post a little better the first time