Your killer Digi 001 rig

general questions, comments and ideas about recording, audio, music, etc.
Electricide
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Re: Your killer Digi 001 rig

Post by Electricide » Wed Apr 14, 2004 11:50 am

ah, thanks for clearing that up.

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trodden
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Re: Your killer Digi 001 rig

Post by trodden » Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:04 pm

Ok, now my brain is starting to hurt... i've never noticed a problem before so there probably is none.. but paranoia has got me... there is no latency issues when overdubbing if you are monitoring your input from the console before it hits the converters and your monitoring the the two track mix from LE's 1-2 outputs (with record enabled track muted) also going to previous mentioned console. RIGHT??
so the main latency problem would be when one uses a stand alone pre amp into LE's a/d inputs and your monitoring from LE's 1-2 L/R outputs right????

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Re: Your killer Digi 001 rig

Post by sdelsolray » Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:13 pm

I got my 001 rig almost three years ago. I'm only recording solo acoustic fingerstyle guitar. I've upgraded as follows:

1) Pendulum MDP-1A pre, Pendulum SPS-1 pre, John Hardy M-2 pre;

2) RME ADI-8 Pro converters (ADAT ==> PCI card);

3) Waves Gold Bundle, McDSP plugins; and

4) Soundcraft M4 mixer (for monitoring only).

I've also upgraded mics, speakers, etc.

I believe I've got it setup the way I want it. I'm not planning on changing anything until much later, after 24 bit/44.1k is wholly obselete, or until something breaks and in not repairable or replaceable. which hopefully will be in many years, if ever.

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Re: Your killer Digi 001 rig

Post by Quest Poetics » Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:51 pm

I've had my 001 rig since 99? or was it 2000...I dont know...Well it's served me well and is still serving me well...It's made me Tens of thousands of dollars so far....I mean I'm not rolling crazy in cash but I'm paying rent w/ it and doing something I really truly love...

I started out w/ 001 / G3 Blue and white / Mackie 1604 (which I still have and use a bit) and a ton of 57's

Started getting into pre's/converters and bought an Apogee Trak2 (takes care of my clocking it also gives me 2 channels of a/d and 8 channels of d/a) then I bought the Focusrite isa 428 w/ the 8 channel a/d converter on it... I use that and the apogee for my drum tracks and put the scratch tracks on my 001 inputs/converters...They're so crappy...

I really really wish that digi would just give us a box w/ 16 channels of lightpipe and not even give us analog inputs...I'd be in heaven and finally "upgrade" one of these days...

As for the 001 itself it's an awesome unit that has made me a ton of money...My only gripe is , like Joel I can't do this latency thing anymore....Yeah in monitoring it sucks but once I started to buy outboard gear (Amek Neve 9098 Dual channel compressor) then the Latency issue really hits home...It's not that I cant fix the phase of the signal leaving the 001, leaving the converters, into the neve, back into the 001...But it's just a hassle...Especially on drums....Oh well though, I really shouldn't complain too hard...One day I'll just suck it up and instead of buiying more pre's I'll get a TDM system...MMMM.....Delicious...

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Re: Your killer Digi 001 rig

Post by trodden » Wed Apr 14, 2004 3:15 pm

Ok, now another latency question. i feel silly asking, i've never noticed any problems while over dubbing and using the headphone out from the 01 unit. But i usually have it on low letancy monitering or i'm monitoring from an external mixer send rather than the signal from the record enabled track output in protools.

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Re: Your killer Digi 001 rig

Post by joel hamilton » Wed Apr 14, 2004 3:34 pm

The latency differs from Odd/even pair to odd/even pair on the 001 I have.
I had a tech report PDF that showed the latency for 1 and 2 to be different from 3-4, and 5-6 and so on..

Couple that with monitoring latency and what I wound up with was phase discrepencies that I personally wound up hating, because I would work on a TDM rig on one day, then an 001 the next, and the drums would sound different coming out of the 001, and I would have to fuck with my track assignments, or buss all the drums to 3-4 out or whatever and mix in the box to a certain degree. none of what I am talking about will be of any concern if your primary mode of operation is to use a master fader and ONE odd even pair of outputs to monitor.
I had all the outputs (8 digi/8 via lightpipe, maybe 2 via Spdif) and all those pairs would come up phasey compared to a TDM rig with the same amount of outputs.

I would have to "slip" the snare top to phase correctly with the snare botttom, if they were laid out across 2 separate odd even pairs. like if the snare top was on 2, and the snare bottom was on three, they wouldnt work as well as they did on a TDM rig.

"low latency monitoring" only affects monitoring during recording (obviously) so that was of no use to me during the mix, so I would move things to "sit" again.

Like I said, unless you are fanning the out's across a console, and using real compression, and hearing the mix just get all wacky when the compression reveals, in great detail, how 3ms matters very much to a transient that lasts 30ms.

All of this adds up across a bunch of tracks, and you just simply dont have the snap you would have if all the arrival times werent being determined by the capture device, but by the musicians themselves.

I, too loved my 001. I got years of use out of it. It is what it is, and can be extremely powerful especially when clocked to something nice (like the apogee example above).

I simply can not accept the limitations that seem to plague every performance, nor can the level of client I need to record with confidence.

I still have the 001, and use it in the kitchen as something to bounce two tracks to disc for listener copies without tying up the HD rig.

This is not a diss, this is a fact. Look up the latency times for each pair of outputs on the 001 at the digi site, if they still have that up... It might be a dirty secret...

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Re: Your killer Digi 001 rig

Post by Electricide » Wed Apr 14, 2004 4:01 pm

so wouldn't most DAW have latency around 3ms? With some you can tweak down to 1.5 I've heard. The TDM systems avoid this, but for $10000. Does any DAW at or under $1000 avoid this really?

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Re: Your killer Digi 001 rig

Post by trodden » Wed Apr 14, 2004 4:16 pm

Joel....
wow, never knew that about the whole latency issue with the different outs.... Mixing out of the box is my next step of operation for my ghetto project studio using a G3 and 001. some of the time i'm in a real studio on a tdm then just taking my drive back to ghetto land 001 studio to add some overdubs and work on rough mixes in the box. Most of the time it stays in the box unless the budget allows for mixing in a real studio. This would have driven me fucking crazy to start attempting to mix with a console out of my 001 and get those latency issues.

I love my 001. i bought it and the G3 for $1,000. Owning it has made not only my protools skills better, but my engineering skills better all around because i can fuck around with it 24/7 if i want. its paid itself off from doing demo stuff for the local punk and hardcore bands arouind town. I can make a pretty damn good sounding record on the thing. Obviously there are other parts of my chain that could be upgraded for the time being. My favorite part is being able to take clientele to a "real" studio for a couple of days to get basic tracks (mostly all the live tracks and what over dubs we can get done) using all the nice gear, then be able to take the drive back to my world and work some more. Allows me to not only charge less, which provides more work for me, which then allows more practice which duh, leads to better techniques, ideas, and better sounding records for everyone in the end. yeah, there may be plenty of negative hype about the digi 001 or protools in general, but fuck, it works for me. And it really works when everything is thrown on 2" in a nice room before hand then dumped into digi land.. and that makes me happy...


So now after all of that said. here are some dumb questions about upgrading the clock and the coverters... do you all light pipe it into the stock 8 in/ 8 out rack unit? Is there a limit on how many a/d converters i can chain together? I've only have the stock unit plus some alesis converters opticaled to the digi box.

before i worry about that though, some decent fucking preamps besides my mackies would be nice.

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Re: Your killer Digi 001 rig

Post by chris harris » Wed Apr 14, 2004 4:18 pm

That just blows my mind that the latency would be different for different stereo pairs.

I use Cubase SX with a RME card and have never had this problem when fanning out a mix to an analog board.

This has GOT to be a driver issue with the 001! Does anyone know if the 002 has the same problem?

I've been thinking of switching to PT, but have hesitated due to a lack of plug-in delay compensation!! (they've just sorted this out in Cubase and I couldn't go back to manual compensation... especially with UAD plugs.)

If they included PDC in the next version of PT, and I could be sure that I could easily fan out a mix from an 002, then I'll probably switch at the end of the year.

If not, I'll probably just get some hot rod converters for the system I'm currently using and wait til next year to go with an HD system.

wow!! I'm still just blown away, Joel!

chris

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Re: Your killer Digi 001 rig

Post by joel hamilton » Wed Apr 14, 2004 4:29 pm

Protools rocks. I firmly believe that, and I use it every fucking day (almost).

I got into an HD3 rig, because of the level i am working at these days, and once I found out more about the issues with the 001, I realised why I was getting fucked with so much by my audio. I made that thing work, and I am sure all of you do, but it takes more effort, and sketchier practices (like I said, moving peoples takes around).

Please search on the digi site to verify that the info I have provided is still true, or at least a mention that they "fixed" this but I doubt that. this was 4 years ago, which is why I cant remember the exact latencies for each pair. I used to have it memorized!! I cant remember, I just remember it was different for each pair.

Trodden:

I used a rosendahl nanosynch and a frikkin AI3 via lightpipe. The AI3 has some headroom issues, but not any more or less than the built in converters in the 001, and the AI3 is really cheap these days!

I hope this helps out, I swear this is not an 001 basher writing this, it is simply a fact of that great little beast that it has some funky issues that can be "worked around" if you arm yourself with the knowledge, then make your own decision.

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Re: Your killer Digi 001 rig

Post by trodden » Wed Apr 14, 2004 4:51 pm

Joel,
yep, i'm using the AI3 as well, light piped into the digi unit, and yep they're pretty similar sounding, i jus try to stay away from the two pres/converts on the front of the digi unit for as long as space provides, i'm hardly using all 16 inputs all at one time, they just make me nervous for some reasons. I'm using the internal clock to sych the AI3. I'm guessing that the rosendahl nanosynch us a clock unit and does not convert audio... right? I'm not much of a computer guy, I know what sits in front of me and how that stuff works.. It seems everything else i know, besides file organization and general maintenance, transfers to analog recording as well!
Thanks for all the information!

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Re: Your killer Digi 001 rig

Post by joel hamilton » Wed Apr 14, 2004 7:07 pm

Yes, the nanosynch is a clock and nothing more. I connected it via SPDIF and the AI3 is not capable of being a master so everything clocked to the rosendahl and it made a HUGE difference.

Not like " a panel of engineers listened for hours and determined it was better" but more like "holy crap, that sounds way better!"

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Re: Your killer Digi 001 rig

Post by stapes » Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:51 pm

I also use an 001 as my main format as well, and have been very happy for the most part. Most people are very surprised with the results I get with it. It really is a very useful tool, and I'd recommend it to anyone wanting to learn how to use Pro Tools as just starting out. I use the 8 outputs on it, 8 from an RME ADI-8 and clock everything from a Kurzweil Rumour. I'll have to agree that the clocking source made just about the hugest differerence in the sound quality of the 001, and that's why I've stayed with it for so long. I'm feeling the growing pains pretty hard right now and want to get rid of it. It's causing a lot of wierd grounding issues with my console because of the PCI cable. I'm also discovering that a lot of my gear does not like to be used unbalanced, which the last six analog outs on the 001 are unfortunately plagued by. I'm torn between taking the step sideways to the 002 and a new computer or holding out on a HD rig sometime in the future. I just got a 2", so I don't know how much I'm actually going to be tooling in the future, but it's starting to become a necessity with some musicians. Anybody else made the step to the 002 from the 001? Is it that big of a difference? I'm also wondering about the latency from the firewire connection. Anyone?

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Re: Your killer Digi 001 rig

Post by mechanic » Thu Apr 15, 2004 6:44 am

has the digi002 made significant clock improvements over the 001?

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Re: Your killer Digi 001 rig

Post by stapes » Thu Apr 15, 2004 8:22 am

I'd imagine that it's got a better clock just because it's newer technology and the power supply is internal instead of running off of the damn PCI buss. If you think about it, clock stability relies greatly on a good power supply, and whatever the computer is sending out through that PCI is crap. Just a better power supply should improve a lot of things with the clock and converters, theoretically. Havne't heard one yet, so I couldn't tell you how much. That's what I'm hoping to find out.

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