Mixing with additional A-D-A conversion VS. internal summing

[trodden]

Lately there has been a lot of discussion concerning mixing out of the box through an analog console to help eliviate the problems of the internal summing of the computer mixer. People have said that it has helped their mixes greatly. I've done this a few times, but on really nice consoles and REALLY nice converters. I'm wanting to start doing this as well in my ghetto fab project studio. HOWEVER, I'm wondering if and additional conversion from analog to digital after running out of my friend's Allen and Heath back into my DIGI001 converters would be just as detrimental to the sound as mixing in the box. The converters on the digi 001 seem to do the job for me, but i've not taken to an additional level of conversion. Right now, my only two-track mix down option is back into the computer via the DIGI001 converters or some Alesis AI3's. It would be ideal to go from the analog console into a finely maintained two track reel to reel, but that's not going to appear anytime soon.

I'm sure you're thinking, well try it out and make a decision, which i plan on doing but i'm just looking for some discussion cause i'm way freakin busy right now and don't have the time right now to run tests at my buddy's place on the other side of town, and get my rough mixes due this week done.

I'm starting a new session this weekend and i'd like to try to mix it this way (out of allen and heath back into DIGI001), cause the band cannot afford to take it to the big studio with the trident board and the HD3 system. Its either that or mixin' in the box again.

THanx!

[I'm Painting Again]

i like the way my mixes sound recoverting..that is from the logic to a mixer to a sony cd-r w33..the sony has 24bit converters that dither down to 16 with optional limiting and eq..its actually pretty nice sounding..for sure better than a logic mixdown..i never tried going out and back in..only to the sony and to an ampex 2trk..i dont know if this will help..

[joel hamilton]

If you impart a sound that is good in the analog world: re-capture it in digital.

The way things work in a console is more musical (to my ear) than the way things work in the plug in realm. You also maximize your system resources by having an EQ at every channel on the console, rather than some EQ plugin. Try both, try neither. You are addding variables when you are out of the box that dont exist in every protools rig on earth. More personality=better in my opinion.

Getting the sound of an actual mixer back into protools is far superior to simply leaving decent sounds in the box.

That is my opinion. I have used a Ghost for this, I have used auditronics/ neve/api/trident/ssl....mackie...

Any one of those sounded better than simply bouncing to disk...

[stillafool]

I've heard that too. I don't have a SSL board, but I can tell you the digital summing algorithms of cubase sx and pro tools sound a hell of alot better to me than my chump-change mackie mixer, which is why I only use 2 output channels of an 8 channel card, and do most of my mixing using software.

[audioboy6]

I've never used Digi 001 converters but they can't be as bad as bounce to disk. I would say go with the mixer. It will save you a lot on DSP and it will have more character than a software mix. If there is any budget at all try to rent some better converters for the session.

let us know what you end up doing

[dMiurge]

I've been wondering a lot about the same thing. Is it really worth going through my budget converters a second time just to mix through a crappy budget mixer? I haven't tried it yet because my mixer is an old hiss factory and I'd have to buy a new one to even give it a shot. There is no way I'm going to waste my money on anything less than a soundcraft, so this turns out to be quite an investment for my very modest studio. So is it worth it? I'd like to know too. One thing I have learned through my research on the topic is that it's not the A/D conversion you should be worrying about. Most lower end converters are far worse at D/A conversion, mostly because of the crappy analog electronics that they use to output the signal. So it's leaving box in the first place that imparts most of the problems. As far as what I've read is telling me, the extra digital conversion that happens on the two channels going back into the machine is far less of a concern. When you try it out, DO let us know if you think it made a worthwhile difference to you.

[Family Hoof]

Trodden,

You can run 24-bit all the way through, right? Do you have a good plugin dither to go down to 16-bit at the end? The DIGI001 converters aren't great but they're not particularly bad either, IMHO. Do you ever use outbaord gear with your in-the box mixes? I know I do and I never think twice about the 2 to 4 conversion stages involved. The outbaord's got sounds that beat my plugins and I'll get them the only way I can. Think of the Allen & Heath as a particularly nice sounding piece of outboard.

There is always loss - with every capacitor, every opamp, and every foot of wire, not just with every conversion stage. So it's probably best not to worry about this theoretical bullshit you can't do anyting about. Use them ears.

In my limited 16 bit Pro Tools world, I cringe every time I have to move one of those virtual faders or think about the narrow stereo image I'm settling for. I feel that the software is providing enough loss already to justify out of the box. Just tell yourself the magic analog glue will cover up all your losses.

[thenumber]

right now for me, noise is a big problem. when i first put this whole place together i used the cheapest cable i could find (8 cents a foot!), but ive since discovered its microphonic, and i can HEAR a difference between it, and better cable. I wasnt able to hear this with my behringer pres. Swapping out every inch later this month, but right now its a BAD thing to even do basic group mixing - drums bass guitar vox cause of the noise. I really really really hope the converters dont end up making it questionalbe to mix on the console... it just feels so much better dammit

dont know where that was going

[Red Rockets Glare]

I would love to try mixing out of the box, but my converter only has 8 outputs and I ALWAYS use more tracks than that, am I missing something?

[ape32]

Red -

Last time I mixed OOTB I sent four stereo pairs from my 8-out Layla - that way I could avail myself of the internal panning and such. That mix ended up significantly better that the ITB version. Just use them like sub groups in a live sound setting.

[audioboy6]

Hey Red

Do you have a adat light pipe output on your interface? Easiest thing to do is get an 8 channel D/A converter with light pipe input. That will give you 16. You may also be able to get 2 more if you have an Spdif out with another 2 channel converter. Just make sure that you have your clocking set up correctly. you should have one master and everything else should be slaving to that device. an external master clock would be a really good thing to get.

[trodden]

Thanks everyone for all the input. Looks like i'm going to be using a little bit of both worlds. There will be some stereo buss summing (stem mixes) going on "in da box") since these sessions are between 24 and 32 tracks and I can get 8 stereo outputs with the digi and the alesis AI3 unit. I may have to use some automation (mutes) within the computer as some plugins (compressors) as well. But i hope to be using the boards EQ and faders for level control. Hell even running the whole shabang through the board and just using the mix buss may help. The whole loss of stereo field is what i'm noticing the most, and its bothering the hell out of me.

Trodden,

You can run 24-bit all the way through, right? Do you have a good plugin dither to go down to 16-bit at the end? The DIGI001 converters aren't great but they're not particularly bad either, IMHO. Do you ever use outbaord gear with your in-the box mixes? I know I do and I never think twice about the 2 to 4 conversion stages involved. The outbaord's got sounds that beat my plugins and I'll get them the only way I can. Think of the Allen & Heath as a particularly nice sounding piece of outboard.

There is always loss - with every capacitor, every opamp, and every foot of wire, not just with every conversion stage. So it's probably best not to worry about this theoretical bullshit you can't do anyting about. Use them ears.

In my limited 16 bit Pro Tools world, I cringe every time I have to move one of those virtual faders or think about the narrow stereo image I'm settling for. I feel that the software is providing enough loss already to justify out of the box. Just tell yourself the magic analog glue will cover up all your losses.

Great points there Hoofer. I've not yet used outboard gear on a protools session for mix down. only for tracking and re-recording tracks to send through things like effects pedals, sans amp, tape echo. Yes, i plan on going 24 bit the whole time. One project WILL get mastered so it will stay 24 bit 'cept for the copies for one offs for the band to listen to, but the final disk will stay a 24 bit file. As for the other project, its just a demo that will not be mastered so eventually i'll have to bounce the stereo tracks to disk. I've got the standard dither plug in as well. Would it be better to skip the whole master fader thing on the stereo session and just put that plug in on channel one L and channel 2 R ? also...I can't tell when the thing is on or off. Highlighted blue or black???

I need to get back to the way Joel works, using the daw like a tape machine and that is it. I learned how to recored on tape machines, shouldn't have changed my ways of operations... but due to access and availability and economic factors, i guess I had to change some things.

[Family Hoof]

Great points there Hoofer. I've not yet used outboard gear on a protools session for mix down. only for tracking and re-recording tracks to send through things like effects pedals, sans amp, tape echo. Yes, i plan on going 24 bit the whole time. One project WILL get mastered so it will stay 24 bit 'cept for the copies for one offs for the band to listen to, but the final disk will stay a 24 bit file. As for the other project, its just a demo that will not be mastered so eventually i'll have to bounce the stereo tracks to disk. I've got the standard dither plug in as well. Would it be better to skip the whole master fader thing on the stereo session and just put that plug in on channel one L and channel 2 R ? also...I can't tell when the thing is on or off. Highlighted blue or black???

I need to get back to the way Joel works, using the daw like a tape machine and that is it. I learned how to recored on tape machines, shouldn't have changed my ways of operations... but due to access and availability and economic factors, i guess I had to change some things.

I've never used the built-in dither because I'm fortunate to have a Waves bundle but it's got to be better than nothing. I avoid the Master Fader when I can because its inserts are post fader (very annoying!) and it's just another unnecessary stage in the path. Yeah, just a stereo track or dual mono should do. Also, instead of drawing mute automation (waste of time) just cut out the parts you don't want. This makes the arrangement visible whereas you can see instruments coming in and out.

I agree, Joel's method is the way to go. The DAW is just a nonlinear tape machine with real fancy editing and such. Big time saver but definately not a sound saver.

[dreske]

So, have any of you folks done the analog summing with just eight outs? Does it improve the sound with those few outputs? I've been debating getting another Delta 1010 to get into the analog summing, as I, too, feel like the in-the-box mixes are lacking depth and clarity, but am worried it won't matter that much. Any one regret moving from internal summing to external? Dusty

[Family Hoof]

I just did a mix with 8 outs from my Digidesign 882/20 interface into a Soundcraft Series 200 which only has 8 input channels and I was really happy with the difference. The things I noticed as compared to in the box with Pro Tools v5.0.1 are 1) wider and clearer stereo picture, 2) It took no time at all to get the right levels (usually takes a long time of tweaking with even smaller changes), 3) much more headroom, and 4) The EQ while only 4 band fixed freq seems to do more and can be pushed harder. It's not like these are night and day differences but enough to make me feel really good and make it worth the effort.
However, I should mention that this tune has very few tracks. I will TRY to do a direct comparison with a more complicatred recording and post mp3s sometime next week.

[EDIT] Just to clarify, I'm working entirely at 16-Bit/44.1 with only 8 in, 8 out, 20-Bit converters. I do wish I had another box. You pose a very interesting question, dreske. I believe it helps but we shall have to see.