Guitar Tones

general questions, comments and ideas about recording, audio, music, etc.
Drummer
audio school graduate
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu May 08, 2003 9:40 am
Location: Seattle

Guitar Tones

Post by Drummer » Thu May 08, 2003 9:43 am

What's up all?

I have some guitar tones that I've been working on for a metal band that I'm in and I would very much appreciate your feedback on them. I've never recorded metal before, so any pointers that you might have would much appreciated. From metal albums I've listened to, it sounds like everything has a ton of high end in it (kick, guitar, even the bass) to give it plenty of definition.

Thanks!
Jer

guitar sound located at:
http://www.geocities.com/keller_drummer/

cbcmusic
alignin' 24-trk
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 5:58 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Guitar Tones

Post by cbcmusic » Thu May 08, 2003 10:19 am

You know, I love the metal, I really do and although I love jazz and all sorts of weird combos of styles out there, I rarely record metal stuff. Actually the people I know who record metal bands, hates metal.... the irony. :roll:

Anyway, the ONE time I had to record some metal guitar sounds, the guy had been to the studio for previous bands and told me he always played the parts 3 or 4 times, but without using the full metal distortion setting you used in those examples you posted. Try to back off the distortion a bit, and compress the tracks a little (moreso in mixdown, you can control how heavy they sound). When he recorded the first track, it wasn't quite heavy enough and I was thinking we may need to retrack later with some more distortion (I'm such an amateur now and this was at least 2 years ago). Anyway try recording a few guitar tracks and NO, I don't mean copy and paste the one track and shift them in time. Doing the parts over again adds lots of good character.

Another thing that may be worth trying is try to use different guitar and amp combinations for each track (if you have the recources). All the while aiming for the sound you are trying to achieve.

Here's another small note (probably irrelevant, but..), if you need feedback to escape from the guitar on occasion and the guitar's not doing it from lack of distortion, add that in on it's own track later and blend it i the mix, just have a track that's full on metal distortion crazieness and let the feedback slip from time to time or where you need it, hell one track with full distortion would probably add some good character to the song anyway. So yeah, :idea: I would put a full distorted track in with the others and blend it to taste.

Good luck, post what you come up with, I'd like to hear it.
cbc

Drummer
audio school graduate
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu May 08, 2003 9:40 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Guitar Tones

Post by Drummer » Thu May 08, 2003 10:28 am

Thanks for the tips! The good thing about recording the guitar parts in this song is that we're using two totally different cabs for the sounds, so we get two totally different sounding tracks, which will help them to stand out from each other. One of the guitar players also has a small amp that we might use (2 12s).

I'm planning on just experimenting until I get the sound I'm looking for.
Thanks again, and I'll post something as soon as we get this first song done.

Jer

User avatar
trodden
on a wing and a prayer
Posts: 5651
Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 8:21 am
Location: C-attle
Contact:

Re: Guitar Tones

Post by trodden » Thu May 08, 2003 10:48 am

CBC has some great advice. depending on what "kind" of metal is a variable as well. I usually record the noisey, sludgey, "wall of doom" stuff, so haveing 4 different guitar tracks is a usual case. yes, i second the different mic/cab/guitar/head/amount of overdrive or distortion for each track as well. Adds so much more depth and oomph to it all. Its just frustrating when you don't have a player who can overdub well, i have to give the "I don't want to cut and paste and delay" speech often, people are lazy. there is a really good thread on this over at the prosoundweb recpit board in Fletcher's section.

djslayerissick
buyin' gear
Posts: 584
Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 12:02 pm

Re: Guitar Tones

Post by djslayerissick » Thu May 08, 2003 11:37 am

its not all high end. its all about that scooped sound - little to no midrange, lots of presence, and some low end rumble. except maybe on that crazy distorted track - need some midrange there for the feedback. the scooped sound takes the honk out of the guitars and leaves the vocals a nice frequency band window. presence replaces most of the "treble" knob - too much treble will cause a real whiny, nasty sound. and remember that more treble will be percieved after mastering.

how deep are the guitars? standard tuning? drop D? drop C? seven string standard? drop A? lead bass? it makes a big difference for EQ'ing against the bass

also, for the big metal chorus on the 3 lowest strings, trying recording the same power chord riffs on 2 more tracks - one just being the lowest string panned hard left, the other being the next 2 strings panned hard right. it will add SO much clarity and actually be able to distinguish notes on those really fast riffs, especially for 7 strings.

black mariah
buyin' gear
Posts: 505
Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 1:36 pm
Contact:

Re: Guitar Tones

Post by black mariah » Thu May 08, 2003 12:29 pm

The second tone is... workable. The first has WAY too much high end.

Metal tone is more complex than a standard indie rock tone. Don't believe me? Typical "indie rock" tones are a Strat or Tele through a Twin or some similar combo amp. Generally with a lot of midrange, and not much distortion. Tones like that are EASILY recorded by their nature. They cut through and have a lot of presence in a mix. Metal tones on the other hand are a bitch. You're usually looking at a scooped mid sound, which almost HAS to be double or triple tracked (it's the metal way ;) ). It sounds like you have a fine amount of distortion. It's not harming the clarity of the notes any, so don't bugger it up. The second tone is a bit too honky for my taste. It's the upper midrange area that does that, in the 2.5-5k range (according to my current EQ settings, anyway). That annoying, scraping, grating, face-ripping tone just annoys the hell out of me. Be sure to post some stuff when you're done. :D
Heurh!

Drummer
audio school graduate
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu May 08, 2003 9:40 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Guitar Tones

Post by Drummer » Thu May 08, 2003 3:55 pm

Thanks for your honesty. I'm interested to see how these tones will sound with the rest of the instruments. I backed off on the highs with the first tone, and I added some to the second one. Basically, I will be experimenting a lot since I haven't recorded metal before.

Thanks for all the help,
Jer

User avatar
deadair
steve albini likes it
Posts: 320
Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 7:54 am
Location: Western Mass
Contact:

Re: Guitar Tones

Post by deadair » Thu May 08, 2003 7:26 pm

double or triple tracking is deifnately a good idea. although the more tracks you add you sort of end up trading heaviness for clarity, so, you might want to play with that balance.

as for the two guitar sounds, i agree with the post about the first having too much high end, the distortion also seems a bit grainy to me, i would suggest backing off it a bit, or maybe trying a different/clearer/cleaner distortion.

meanwhile the second sound seems to have too much low-mid boom going on that needs cleaning up, the graininess is gone, but so is almost all of the bite. it seems to me that the middle of tracks is about what you should be aiming for.

different sounds for different tracks is a cool effect though. sometimes just to make it easier i will use two different mics set up on the same amp so they get different feels from it, rather then playing with the other settings, or maybe a slight roll of the tone knob on the guitar for different tracks.

just my two cents.

black mariah
buyin' gear
Posts: 505
Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 1:36 pm
Contact:

Re: Guitar Tones

Post by black mariah » Thu May 08, 2003 8:21 pm

Whatever you do, make sure you keep the sound symmetrical. Having a high-end tone on one side and a low-end tone on the other would get damned annoying very quickly. The usual Metal Method(TM) is to do two stereo tracks of the same tone panned about 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock, then another straight up the middle with another tone. You can't get much heavier than that.
Heurh!

Drummer
audio school graduate
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu May 08, 2003 9:40 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Guitar Tones

Post by Drummer » Thu May 08, 2003 9:43 pm

As it stands right now, I recorded the guitar cab with an x-y pattern about 34cm to the axes from the grille. I also close miced the cab. The second guitar tone is actually two takes we did. I split it up so that I had four tracks for two passes. One pair I panned hard left and about 40% left and the other pair I panned hard right and about 40% right to give it some space. Then, I used some compression to even it out and tweaked the EQ a little bit. That's pretty much been my method so far. I hope I didn't confuse anyone.

Jer

User avatar
deadair
steve albini likes it
Posts: 320
Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 7:54 am
Location: Western Mass
Contact:

Re: Guitar Tones

Post by deadair » Thu May 08, 2003 9:49 pm

I'm in to hard panning guitars, except in certain instances myself.... if you're using so many tracks to record.... i've lately gotten into the 421/57 xy pattern right up on the speaker with the 57 pointing the the center of the cone and the 421 pointing at the edge, blend the two to taste. the phase might need to be flipped on one of the tracks too... i havent had much look with condensors back from cabs, i would say for metal you're probably looking more for the tight, clean right off the cab sound........

Drummer
audio school graduate
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu May 08, 2003 9:40 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Guitar Tones

Post by Drummer » Thu May 08, 2003 9:56 pm

I tried the condenser mic behind the cab, far away from it, and at all angles in between and I haven't had much luck. I forgot to mention that I knocked the close mic out of phase with the x-y mics . . . kind of an important detail. We'll see how the hard panning thing pans out (no pun intended) in the final mix because I will be adding another rhythm guitar (double takes of course), then I'll had harmonies on top of those (probably only one guitar). I was thinking about splitting the harmony guitar parts up: like putting the actual melody say at about 3 o-clock to the left and then put the harmony at about 3 o-clock to the right.

Ahh, experimentation

djslayerissick
buyin' gear
Posts: 584
Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 12:02 pm

Re: Guitar Tones

Post by djslayerissick » Fri May 09, 2003 1:39 am

"Having a high-end tone on one side and a low-end tone on the other would get damned annoying very quickly."

i dont necessarily agree. and my example would be coal chamber's and korn's self-titled (first) albums. sometimes the left has a deeper tone with huge low end, and the right has a grittier tone with more presence and attack.
the bass takes over for the lost low end on the right and it seems like theres more click from bass in the left side to balance out the rumbing guitars - which overall ends up making bass more audible in the mix as well.

black mariah
buyin' gear
Posts: 505
Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 1:36 pm
Contact:

Re: Guitar Tones

Post by black mariah » Fri May 09, 2003 5:39 am

Think about the first Van Halen record. See what I mean? :lol:
Heurh!

takeout
steve albini likes it
Posts: 388
Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 8:29 am
Contact:

Re: Guitar Tones

Post by takeout » Fri May 09, 2003 9:50 am

Go the Tool route: four different types of amps running simultaneously, all set differently. Can be monstrous if handled correctly.

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests