Is anyone using a Word Clock with a Digi 002?

general questions, comments and ideas about recording, audio, music, etc.
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Is anyone using a Word Clock with a Digi 002?

Post by Red Rockets Glare » Mon Jun 07, 2004 10:29 am

If so, does it make a big difference?
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Re: Is anyone using a Word Clock with a Digi 002?

Post by Marc Alan Goodman » Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:47 pm

I'm wondering the same exact thing. I have a Lucid 9624 AD converter that I sometimes sync too, but it's not intended to be a clock, and the difference I hear is minimal.

Anyone else have any opinions?

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Re: Is anyone using a Word Clock with a Digi 002?

Post by joel hamilton » Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:53 pm

A clock source like the Aardsync or a rosendahl nanosynch can be the single best improvement in sound quality you can buy for a rig like an 001 or 002.

This is not a subtle thing:

Play a channel heavy mix with the clock set to internal, then switch to the clock.

You will know you need one right away. I was amazed at how much a clock source made all the tracks "sit up straight." More depth, better separation, better top end, better bass, better mid definition... Everything that you want happens.

People should get clocks long before looking for a better mic pre, as the sound will be captured better, and better represented during playback regardless of the mic or mic amp used to get it into a Jitter free environment.

read this:
http://www.reed-electronics.com/ednmag/ ... F18%2F1999

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Re: Is anyone using a Word Clock with a Digi 002?

Post by @?,*???&? » Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:07 pm

If you hate the laser scatter sound of playing a CD, imagine that same sound running rampant in your digital recording from your DAW. With a better, dedicated external clock source, that 'digititis' goes by the wayside.

My digression- if you don't use a clock while overdubbing, but use one when mixing, is the jitter reduction the same or are we applying a band-aid to a sound that already has lost it's integrity being committed without a better clock?

Back to the point. Not everyone can hear the affect of the CD Stoplight either, and I'd say that if you can't, think twice about this career choice. Engineering is about the minutia. And while Joel and I both loath jitter, there are many who may not have put the hours in- or had the chance to actually listen in am environment that is critical enough to expose such anomalies.

If you're not hearing this as a recording engineer, you should strive to drastically improve your listening situation so you can make such critical decisions as these.

..or maybe just mix everything to mp3 and be done with it...(boy, does that sound sarcastic?!)...always!

;-)

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Re: Is anyone using a Word Clock with a Digi 002?

Post by joel hamilton » Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:31 pm

"My digression- if you don't use a clock while overdubbing, but use one when mixing, is the jitter reduction the same or are we applying a band-aid to a sound that already has lost it's integrity being committed without a better clock? "

-Jeff Robinson

Jeff,

I have heard projects played back on an 002 that were eventually brought to me for mixing, and coming out of HD converters it sounded WAY better.

This project was tracked exclusively to the 002, without any good clocking in the room.

I would love to see a post by someone with an 001, or 002 that has recently gotten into a good clock source.

I have to agree with you on the fact that "engineering is minutia."
I always say, "engineering is a never ending set of 30 second choices, laying end to end in time."

Jeff have you checked out that link i posted above? pretty amazing (albeit lengthy) description of the mechanics of jitter, AND the PLL offset concepts....

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Re: Is anyone using a Word Clock with a Digi 002?

Post by @?,*???&? » Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:58 pm

Joel, adroit observation about the 30 second decisions. I equate it to a never ending list of things to do when both recording and mixing.

As suspected, the fact you can apply an external clock to items tracked independently without a clock and have them sound better after when applying a good quality external clock makes sense because of what most recording software is designed to do. I have a feeling that out-of-this-world processor/hardware speed can help in this equation too.

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Re: Is anyone using a Word Clock with a Digi 002?

Post by joel hamilton » Wed Jun 09, 2004 5:13 pm

From my research on clock sources,
I feel like the stability of the clock source, under ideal conditions, determines the fidelity of the signal being captured AND reproduced. This is why a good source is so important to audible frquency range reproduction.

If the frame rate of a movie, and the gap between frames was a constantly changing, asynchronous presentatiion of live action, we would notice immediately. This is the same concept.

Just like the mosaic example I gave in the computer forum, the focus, and stability, and "smoothness" of the movement contained on this erratic film stock would be immediately recognizable...

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Re: Is anyone using a Word Clock with a Digi 002?

Post by jebjerome » Wed Jun 09, 2004 5:39 pm

I thought the data is still captured the same even with a horrendous Word clock and that the converters themselves are what actually affect the audio. Granted most really nice converters probably have a nice clock and weak converters a weak clock, but I thought that a nice external clock is essentially going to improve the sound you hear- not actually the data; it is my understanding that a good external clock will, at best, make the converters sound as best as their internal clock could optimally, but not truly improving their quality(except in terms of monitoring). To clarify, I thought that a good external will only show you what is actually going on(which, of course, is helpful and necessary), however it is technically not improving the data, it's just "unveiling" what is really there. Therefore, money would presumably be better spent on better quality converters than an external clock.

Is this correct or is my understanding inaccurate?
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Re: Is anyone using a Word Clock with a Digi 002?

Post by joel hamilton » Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:03 pm

A better quality clock source will be valid regardless of the quality of your converters. Buy a nice clock, and it will last a lifetime, even if you move up to better quality converters, regardless....]]

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Re: Is anyone using a Word Clock with a Digi 002?

Post by joel hamilton » Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:57 pm

Jebjerome:

Your pistons are not fucked up if the timing is off, ya know what I am sayin??? fix the timing, and the pistons will remain the same, yet fire in such a way that they produce more power. Can ya dig it?

The samples themselves being the pistons, and (obviously) the clock being the timing.

The quality of the sample is determined by the quality of the converter.
The quality of the ALIGNMENT across a cycle (360degrees of phase)
of these samples is determined by the clock.

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Re: Is anyone using a Word Clock with a Digi 002?

Post by thenumber » Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:21 am

okay so from what i gather here, rendering in the box without using any outboard gear is not affected by the word clock?

edit:

except that any sort of jitter would cause the converters to grab its sample slightly early or late on the way in. okay i think i understand now

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Re: Is anyone using a Word Clock with a Digi 002?

Post by jebjerome » Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:10 am

Thanks Joel.

Is it correct to say that the quality of the alignment across a cycle (360degrees of phase) of these samples is limited by the best the internal converter's clock can do when using an external converter?

So even if an external clock can clean this alignment up, even the best external clock is limited by the slave's capacity to follow precisely?

This is what I'm uncertain about. Though I'm sure the external converter in situations as such are making things sound better on playback.

It's a bit confusing. If I had a Lavry A/D/A, a Cranesong HEDD and an Apogee Big Ben, would it be worth it to slave the Lavry or the HEDD to the Apogee or would this result in inferior clocking due to the high quality of the Cranesong and the Lavry convertors?(I wish this was my problem) If I had a Motu 2408 MKII slaved to it, would the quality difference be real beyond monitoring if I was doing final output (mixing) to another digital device. I thought that if the last scenario was occurring, then since it finally is D to D the clocking doesn't actually affect the sound, except the higher quality alignment will allow the monitoring to sound better.

If, similar to the last scenario, the mixing wound up being inside the box, will a quality external converter make a difference to the final product beyond monitoring/playback.

Hopefully, I am articulating these questions in a clear fashion.
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Re: Is anyone using a Word Clock with a Digi 002?

Post by Red Rockets Glare » Thu Jun 10, 2004 8:15 am

so joel, where do I buy a nanosynch?
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Re: Is anyone using a Word Clock with a Digi 002?

Post by kcrusher » Thu Jun 10, 2004 8:41 am

Keep in mind that the 002 (and any LE system) does not have a word clock input. You have to use the coax or optical inputs for clock sync.
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Re: Is anyone using a Word Clock with a Digi 002?

Post by Rick Hunter » Thu Jun 10, 2004 9:53 am

Goddamnit Joel. Now you got me freaked out that I neeed to get a word clock. I mean I probably should but, I had no idea that they were really that improtant. Where the hell was I. Now I know, and knowing is half the battle.


I guess I should stop mixing things to Mp3 while I am at too. Whoops.

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