Stereo Overheads, hats too loud, ride too soft, suggestions?

[FNM]

I recorded some drums with just stereo overheads for the cymbals, no hat or ride mics. On most of the tunes it sounds fine, but on one particular, when I have the ride level good, the hats are too loud. It's mainly due to the fact that he is doing off-beat hi-hat openings which cut through like a knife.

I tried compression, but as it turns out the levels of the ride and hats are very similar, it's just that the hats are cutting through better. I'm probably going to end up trying to do some volume evolutions and hope that it doesn't make the crash cymbal decays sound weird. But I decided to come here to see if I could get any other suggestions.

Thanks a lot for any input.

[jca83]

well, i thought compression, but finished reading your post. if they're the same level, then it's apparent loudness and not actual loudness that you're concerned with, right?

i'd start by cutting the EQ on the hats, just a tad. it'll bring down their "sizzle" and "bite" and probably do what you want it to.

crank the EQ up all the way and find where the hats are loudest by moving your EQ knob. then, just cut them until they slide into the mix.

conversely, you could bring this EQ up on the rides. this'll even out your mix slightly and let those cymbals shine out a little more. then, you could cut both of them slightly, prohibiting them from taking prominence of your other tracks.

i'd also recommend to not give up on compression. compression is my favorite thing ever. if you slam the crap out of both of them equally, something good is bound to happen.

[joeysimms]

Most obvious would be to check your playing style and make sure you keep the hats under control, volume-wise. Have you tried muting the hats?

[FNM]

Re-recording really isn't an option. Fortunately it's not really all that bad, the band is perfectly happy with it, I just want it to be perfect.

I'll maybe try some more extreme compression and see how that works out.

[wayne kerr]

Re-recording really isn't an option.

GIGO!

Fortunately it's not really all that bad,

Then why worry about it?????

the band is perfectly happy with it,

Mission accomplished then!

I just want it to be perfect.

Call us when you have a pile of your own hair on the floor!





S/H

[miriamaudio]

I'd like to stress Joey's point of "check your playing."

To me, this includes being concious of cymbal selection. Instrument selection in general seems strangely distant from the conversations about recording I read here - I can't emphasize enough how important I feel it is. For awhile, my little studio at home had one limiter - a 3630 - and people talked about my great drum sounds. I fell into this "one mic" drumkit thing, and I credit the success of it ENTIRELY to the good sound of THE DRUMKIT ITSELF. The cymbals blend nicely, the kit sounds balanced, it just doesn't need extra mics, individual EQ, or mixing. One mic, one limiter, maybe a speaker on the kick drum if I'm feeling sassy.

To bring this back on topic, I have this pair of hi-hats - the greatest ever, in my opinion, that I searched years to find. They've saved my life so many times, because I don't have to do anything to get them to blend with the kit.

PAINFUL REALIZATION NUMBER ONE:
most people have terrible sounding cymbals. this, more than anything else, is my least favorite thing about recording.
PAINFUL REALIZATION NUMBER TWO:
most drummers cannot balance the kit with their hands. this is a HUGE and FUNDAMENTAL problem, and we have to use many mics, and much gear, to fix this.

I try to be Mr. Supportive guy in the studio, but I've gotten to a point with many drummers where I have to say, "Dude, seriously, more drums, less cymbals. Use your hands."

Also, be suspicious of any cymbal labelled "Heavy" or "Rock." Bad news 78% of the time.

[FNM]

I see what you're saying, and I agree 100%, but this was done in a home studio with not a great headphone mix blasting in the guys ears. He played it how he was used to playing it, which was the right thing to do in the situation.

I'm just trying to be a perfectionist here. I'm mainly looking for tips on how something like this may be fixed after the fact. I tried some volume automation and it helped a bit. I think that, combined with a little compression may do the trick.

Thanks for the input though, much appreciated.

[Rigsby]

If it's an audible volume thing, how would it be to reduce the volume on that side a little, or does it just sound unbalanced? Worth a try i'd say, if it looks unblanced but doesn't sound that way then you're all good. I often find that if the hi-hats a little too cutting, then roll off a little high end, compress it a tad and this should tame it, as others have said.

[permanent hearing damage]

messing with the faders like that will probably cause other problems - like the snare being louder in one side.


is this a proble where the hihat is too loud in the ride side of the overhead as well? i battle this constantly - i usually hit the EQ a little bit.

[b3groover]

PAINFUL REALIZATION NUMBER TWO:
most drummers cannot balance the kit with their hands. this is a HUGE and FUNDAMENTAL problem, and we have to use many mics, and much gear, to fix this.

Not to hi-jack this thread (the suggestion of trying EQ to help mask the hi-hat makes the most sense to me), I just want to say "I hear you, brother."

I would go so far as to say that his is not only a huge and fundamental problem of drummers, but today's musicians in general. My trio gets praised by soundmen at gigs all the time because we know how to blend with each other. Most bands expect the soundman or engineer to make them sound good instead of working on blending and sounding good before they put mics in front of themselves.

[Professor]

Just out of suriosity, you mentioned recording with two over head mics in some form of stereo configuration. You push them up, panned I assume to hard left and right, and you get too much hihat on one side but if you back down, you get too little ride. Am I understanding this right?

Seems to me that the first step I would take would be to back off the mic that has too much hat until it has the right amount.

I know, I know the snare drum moved slightly off-center towards the other side.

You could say 'screw it' and call it an artistiv decision, or you can turn the pann knob on the 'ride' overhead until it drops the snare back into the middle.

Beyond that, compression and volume automation ain't gonna help - you need to use the equalizer as JCA83 suggested.

Find the crunch of the hats and drop it, maybe even use the high-mid and low mid to hit the two worst frequency bands (assuming you have a 4-band EQ). Do this either just on the mic that has more hats, or to both if necessary.

Then find the ping of the ride cymbal and bring that up only in the mic that has more ride cymbal.

Do that before compressing the overheads so the hihat doesn't fire the compressor as often and the ride cymbal fires it more than before.

Also play with that pan knob as it might help to mask the hats if the image is narrower and that sound doesn't weigh so heavily on just one speaker.

-Jeremy

[grrrayson]

I had this exact problem for quite a while with a certain pair of hihats of mine that have been recorded several times, so I hope you find some profundity in what I have to say about the experience.

at one point a couple of months ago while playing on a session, I was hitting the hats as softly as I could, and I was bringing my left hand up so high to hit the snare loud enough to keep things in proportion that I bumped one of the overheads a couple times.

I'd had problems with this pair of hihats being too loud in mixes before, and I finally ended up concluding that it was a frequency issue and not a volume issue. I'd adjusted my playing volume enough that I don't think there was anything else that could be done there. they would always cut through anything; they were just really bright cymbals.

the solution for me? some 13" K zildjians.

I advise you to give up the idea of being able to fix this in the mix. it is what it is.

what's the best solution to any problem? prevention.

probably not what you want to hear, but I hope this helps...

love.

grayson elliott



[/i]

[scott anthony]

I'm at work and can't look, but wasn't there a review of some Sony plug-in that may address this in the last issue of TapeOp?

[grrrayson]

sorry...that last post wasn't so clear. it was kind of a volume issue, obviously--I meant that it was not a dynamics issue that could be fixed with playing (at least not with my playing). the volume was too much at certain frequencies.

and if it's a frequency issue, why not just eq out the offending frequency? it's a type of frequency issue where the sound cut through at frequencies that couldn't be satisfactorily taken away with eq without also taking away a desireable part of the sound of some other part of the kit.

compressors haven't worked for that either, perhaps because hihats are too high in frequency and too transient.

to summarize, I should've said that in my experience, there's just no good way to get around a set of dominating hihats.

...and since I had to make another post, can I put in another plug for K zildjians?

[LeedyGuy]

how about a little multiband compression at about 8K or something or wherever the hats are annoyingly loud?

i always have the "hi hats too loud on the ride side" thing. i think its all about mic placement.

one thing ive REALLY learned over time is that the best mix engineers had the best track engineers placing mics and getting sounds...!