What's the big deal with Phish?

[stillafool]

Basically, they came around at exactly the right time -- when Jerry Garcia finally succumbed to years of abusing his body. A bunch of lifeless losers needed some band to follow around, and Phish was as good as anyone else. Like the Dead, they played 40 minute guitar solos that went nowhere, and if you were stoned enough you could find something deep and heavy in just about anything.

[bigtoe]

'Jimmy Smith is completely self-taught and cannot read a lick of music. His "theory" is based on solely on what he heard and what he figured out and taught himself. I think you may be confusing technique with theory.'

wow. i had no idea. i guess i was using them interchangeably. that's pretty flippin' amazing...

'I take it you don't like Bach?'

i do...if you hear bach as technique - i feel for your soul.

Mike

[b3groover]

A lot of Bach's music started as excersises (ie, scales). That's what I was referring to.

I think we agree that technique for the sake of technique is mostly boring but it can yield stunning results.

[ubertar]

A lot of Bach's music started as excersises (ie, scales). That's what I was referring to.

I think we agree that technique for the sake of technique is mostly boring but it can yield stunning results.

Yngvie. (Yngwie?) lol

Understanding theory has little to nothing to do with the ability to read music. Indian musicians know theory out the yingyang but don't read music. You can play in an orchestra and sight-read music as easily as reading the newspaper but not know shit for theory.

[bigtoe]

ah...i just came back to edit...b3- i went to your site to see where you were coming from...looks really cool...i should have watched my lip no the music school thing. my apologies.

i know i know on bach... but it ends up amazing music, not wanking...but phish? come on. that stuff is total cheesewhiz. comparing phish to bach is *TWEEEEEEEEEEET* out of bounds! the technique is necessary to play it...like i don't want to listen to someone stumble through bach. painful.
'I think we agree that technique for the sake of technique is mostly boring but it can yield stunning results.'

i dont think so...honestly...technique is so secondary in my ear... particularly in folk music. i also very much believe that shoving a set of parameters on some creative types can cut the juice. i was raised by connies...so i've been pretty vocal about non tech music ever since my first ramones record.

Mike

edit- "Yngvie. (Yngwie?) lol" see that's the end result of some of these roads! haha - yikes!!

[b3groover]

I can't read music either, but I know enough theory to read chord charts and such. I majored in Telecommunications at school, not music.

I wasn't comparing Phish to Bach. I was responding to what I thought you were saying, ie music that is based on theory (by which I think you mean technique) is inherently dull. But maybe I'm not catching your drift.

[greenmeansjoe]

the only revenue those filthy hippies are gonna generate is gonna be from a few parking tickets. i don't recall anyone ever charging me tax on acid, weed, or ecstacy.

There will be lots of drug and alcohol arrests, though, and lots of court appearances and lots of fines paid. Lots of 'em. That brings in a ton o' money. There were only 23 arrests here last night, but over 100 folks are gonna be in court today, paying fines.

And any hotel, restaurant or business within spitting distance is gonna be swamped.

Phish fans do generate revenue. And lots of it. No doubt about that.

Joe

[ubertar]

wow. i had no idea. i guess i was using them interchangeably. that's pretty flippin' amazing...

Theory and technique are completely different things. Think of Miles during his "cool" period. Very minimalist. Of course there's still great technique going on even though there are relatively few notes... then we get into the meaning of 'technique'-- with a wind instrument, there's a lot of technique involved in producing good tone. But I don't think that's what you meant. There's no flashy technique going on (Yngwie style) but there's tons of theory behind the choice of each note.
Another way to think about it: a composer can use theory to write music for instruments s/he may have no technique on at all. And the performer might read well and have great technique, but no understanding of the theory behind the piece.

[bigtoe]

'But maybe I'm not catching your drift.'

yeah we crossed lines. i have to stop communicating in between stacks of paper here at work...

'music that is based on theory (by which I think you mean technique) is inherently dull.'

no way. people who play like typewriters are. that was the point.

i'm out...come down to cleveland and play. check out the bop stop!

Mike

edit ubertar - ah totally understood. technique can be spoiled by over-emphasizing theory which i guess was my point. think miles era: "play that thing like you don't know how to play it." (paraphrased)...but that was his point...make music...not scales.

[b3groover]

Gotcha. Would love to play Cleveland.

[Frost]

Any time an extra 100,000 people come to your area, they will bring problems, and they will bring CASH. no the weed isnt taxed but the Hotels, restruants, gas stations and local vendors who choose to participate make millions. The town of Limestone Maine loved it when phish came. Local residents gained entire years of income over the weekend. The asked phish to return.

Next, PHish did not come around at the right time. They were a band in 1983! They were playing RED Rocks and sold out the BOSTON GARDEN in 1993! Jerry didnt die till 95.

Next, Why the animosity? Too many people on this thread are getting up in arms and getting pissed off. I will compare phish to bach and rachmaninoff for that matter. Many of their songs are symphonies imo. I have a degree in music and studied them as well as motzart and the likes. If you dont like them, then dont, I didnt like opera till I really listened to the power that can come from someones voice. Saying that PHish sucks makes you sound like a musical idiot. They have more talent than most other musicians I have ever heard. Saying its not your cup of tea is part of why we have so many different but great genres of music.

Frost

[choke3d]

As a former Phish fan,and long-time musician I'd have to say that they should be lauded for their accomplishments. They've had an extremely successful and *long-term* career without using "mainstream" channels. Hell, I'm extremely envious of a band with such an avid fanbase. They are all excellent musicians, and while their music is much less visceral than what I normally listen to, I'm always happy to give a musician like Trey (guitar) a listen.
Those of you who knock 'em because they aren't "cool" or because their fans are "stinking hippies" have a lot to learn about working in a "real" studio, or making a living as a live sound engineer. We don't always get to work with music we like, but if you are lucky enough to work with down to earth people who are successful making music that doesn't try to constantly coddle the crappy mainstream we have now, you're doing pretty well.
There's a lot of "indie-tude" going on here. Well versed musicians, engineers and producers keep working because they can transcend boundaries and can simply play, record, etc. well. Realize that when someone is successful, there is generally something to be learned from them. Even Steely Dan (!)

[JGriffin]

Well said, Choke. I think I'll adopt the phrase "indie-tude" if you don't mind--it applies to lots of converstations that happen around here. (Eherm, Steely Dan thread, anti-pitch-correction threads, cough cough.)

I don't mind "stinking hippies" but can't stand the Patchouli. Fucking stuff smells like wet topsoil. Eeeugh.

[choke3d]

Yeah, thanks - feel free to apply it everywhere. I've been an "indie" musician since the term actually meant something, and I'm 'bout to start getting nasty with people who wrap themselves in the "indie flag" while spending their parents money on gear, having a full-time booking agent at their disposal, and playing battle-of-the-bands contests. It's about "jammin' econo" - and like it or not, indie-elite, Phish did for a long time.

[greenmeansjoe]

Yeah, thanks - feel free to apply it everywhere. I've been an "indie" musician since the term actually meant something, and I'm 'bout to start getting nasty with people who wrap themselves in the "indie flag" while spending their parents money on gear, having a full-time booking agent at their disposal, and playing battle-of-the-bands contests. It's about "jammin' econo" - and like it or not, indie-elite, Phish did for a long time.

Personally, I'm not trying to talk shit about Phish. I can respect their success. I just find their music a bit, oh, uninteresting, and I have a hard time figuring out why people are so drawn to the whole scene.

Jamming is fine, right? Television pulled it off in spades, but they also knew how to play a solid three minute rock song. I see Phish's propensity for stretching every single damn song out into a 20-minute jam as a weakness. Trey, Page, Mike and Jon may be incredible musicians, but I have to wonder if any of them can actually write a decent, concise song.

Oh, I don't know.

Nevermind.

Joe