how do i fix this bad guitar tone?

[drmorbius]

So the guitarist in the band has an overdrive tone that really bothers us. He plays on a Yamaha and there is basically no sound at all unless the pickup selector is in one of its five possible positions, so I'm guessing some of the pickups are shot. He dropped the guitar once and the jack got bashed in. He uses a Morley pedal that is a combination wah and distortion. He plays through a Peavey Bandit.

The problem with the tone is that when playing low, all his notes are lost in a muddy low jumble that won't go away, even when he turns the bass eq knob on the amp all the way down. When he plays high, there are all these atonal harmonics.

I'm guessing it could either be a gain stage issue or the aforementioned broken pickups, but I'm not a guitar play and don't really know what to suggest. I know this description is somewhat vague but I was wondering if anyone had any clue what might cause these issues. The guitarist is one of those players with sketchy gear that soundmen roll their eyes over as he sets up, but then he has phenomenal chops and takes everyone by surprise. But he isn't a "gear head" type and neither am I and I don't know what to tell him. Maybe some of you do.

[mingus2112]

Best way to record a great guitar sound:

Step 1) Start with a Great Guitar / Effects / Amp

Step 2) Capture

As anal as we all are about our recording gear, that's how you have to think about the guitar tone. As an engineer it's not really your job to get his tone for him. There's only so much you can do with a poor source.

About Yamaha guitars:
I've played some that weren't bad. Some of the higher end ones can get rather nice. I can't really bash the guitar by the brand alone, but from what you described, it's pretty beat. Sounds like he/she didn't take care of it, which in turn leads me to believe they didn't spend any decent coin on it either. You get what you pay for, and you get what you take care of. I'm in love with Fenders, but there are some fenders that i'd throw up just looking at.

Moreley wah/distortion combo:
This is where a lot of your muddiness comes from. The wah is super clean in these things. I don't happen to like the sound, but it's electro optical pot makes for a clean wah. The distortion circuit in it, however, isn't really suited for clarity. Again, i don't like it at all, but speaking subjectively it lacks clarity in any note combos other then 4ths 5ths and octaves. . .true solid state fake overdrive.

The peavy bandit:
This might be able to be dealt with. Does it have overdrive or distortion on it? It won't be a killer sound, but you'll probably get a better tone out of it then the pedal.

To put all of this in a nutshell, you're really going for the sound he wants. Is this your band or just one that you're recording? I understand that if it's your band, you may want a better sound, but you may be stuck with what he puts out. If he's a good guitarist, suck up the bad tone and let the playing speak for itself. At least it'll be an accurate representation of what you do live.

-James

[No Wave Casio Kitsch]

Is borrowing another guitar an option? Aside from the pickups likely not functioning the intonation is probably all sorts of whacked out.

[mingus2112]

Just reread your post and you didn't actually say that you were recording him. I just kind of assumed being tapeop and all.

Live sound is pretty much the same animal though. You've got to have the gear to make the sound. It doesn't need to cost a lot either. Have him take the guitar in to get it repaird. Once this is fixed you can take it from there. Have him bring his guitar AND amp into one of the big chain stores to try out different pedal alternatives. Ibanez makes some cheap yet very usable pedals that he might be interested, (around $40 each)

-James

[drmorbius]

thanks so much for the advice. i was suspicious that even though the guitar is in bad shape the morley pedal wasn't helping things either. i couldn't say for sure because he's the only player i've ever heard who used it. i think i'll suggest he use the overdrive on the bandit instead.

oh, and there's one other thing i forgot to mention. when he finishes a passage, there's sometimes this foul echo sound when he mutes the strings that sounds kind of like when you have the reverb on a combo turned all the way up and kick it over. and no, he's not using any reverb at all--no pedals and the knob on the bandit all the way down. could this be caused by faulty pickups or do you think the amp is more likely to blame? bad speaker?

oh, and yes, we're in the same band.

[Punkity]

Ugh. I know that scene (primarily because I used to be just like that). I'm guessing the guy is pretty young. High School? Anyway, I doubt the guitar is the problem, but it can't hurt to get it fixed. I lived there years ago, and the only place I know of still there that does good work is the Music-Go-Round in Carrboro, but it wouldn't be my first choice (price and turn-around time wise). There was a guy there when I moved named Brian Gibson who is a stand up-dude with a little shop called "Gibson's Guitars" but he was forced to change the name to "Brian's Guitars" (or something) for obvious reasons. If he still has a shop or is working somewhere I'd take it to him. If he is sweemish about getting it fixed, just tell him he is being an idiot. There is nothing wrong with having a guitar that works properly, and no one is going to laugh at him for having that guitar (well, not to his face).

Regarding the sounds, that one is easy. The Peavy Bandit is a complete piece of junk tone-wise. There is very little to be done except render it permanently unusable while the guitar player is not looking. I kid! I kid! Really... Or, if you want to keep a friend, try to get him to fool around with someone else's gear. Be careful not to rub it the wrong way; young guitar players are strangely touchy. Just a jam situation or something, and not "I borrowed this so you could hear how a REAL amplifier sounds."

I don't know about the Morley, but you could always try out another distortion petal "just for fun."

Somehow you are going to have to guide this person to a new world of tone with it seeming like he is doing it all on his own. When I left town, there were tons of good to great guitar players in town. Most were pretentious jerks, but they could still play, and most couldn't afford $$$$ guitars and amps, but they knew how to get tone out of what they had.

Also, if you ever have a chance to see "All Night" play, try to talk to the bass player, Nicos. He is a great guy and will set your friend straight in no time flat. He is a complete spaz and is kind of looming, but don't let that scare you away. He knows what he is talking about and knows tons about cheap but great sounding gear. Besides he is a sweet guy and feels best when he is helping people.

One final bit of advice. Sovtek Mig-60 head with any old cabinet. They are cheap used and have a crushing tone. The trick is to turn everything all the way up. I mean everyting! Preamp, all the tone knobs, and the main out. All the way up! No distortion petal, just straight into the amp.

[theinfamousfish]

hmm.. I am confused on this. You say there is no sound unless the selector is in one of the five selector positions. What else would you expect? what other position would you put it in? and why? If you don't get sound in one or two of the positions, then THAT is cause for worry. If no sound in one position, you got a wireing problem or a selector problem. If no sound on to adjacent positions, then either a wiring problem at the pickup itself or a blown pickup. But I wouldn't think there would be a problem in the case you suggest, and don't really know what you are talking about. The selector is not a pickup mix dial. There are only the 5 positions (1, 1+2. 2, 2+3, 3). Unless it is a special guitar where there is an "all on" selection, which will turn all on at once. (btw, I am assuming that this is a strat type guitar because you said there was a 5 switch. If it is a humbucker type with only 2 pickups, then there would be a 3 way switch. And then one of the pickups might not come on in 2 of the stages either due to a blown pickup, wiring, or (most likely) the volume knob to one of the pickups is turned down. That is, if it is a LP or SG type. Of course, there are also other combinations with various problem points, plus the possibility of having pickup tapping (where the sound bypasses on part of a humbucker to get a strat style pickup sound). In which case there would be a 5 selector (1 whole, 1 single, both, 2 single, 2 whole, or something like that). So basically I need to know more about the guitar.

now, about the sound. Do you have a bad sound all around, or just when using the Morley distortion? I used to have that very same pedal. The wah is awesome, of course, but never EVER use the distotion on it. It is the worst distortion I believe I have ever heard. And there is basically no adjustment for it on the pedal itself. If the source of the problem is the distortion on the pedal, there is a pluthera of solutions. Does the amp have a distortion channel? If you are using Morely distortion, I would guess not. But if there is, then simply use it. There is decent distortion to be got from any amp with an overdrive channel if you are willing to search for it. You can even simply use the clean channel if you are not needing to switch from distorted to clean. Just turn up the gain high up and mess with it. Or if you want to go the pedal way, there are many solutions. It all depends on what type of music you play, and what kind of distortion is desired. If you want hardcore crunch for punk, hardcore, or metal, you can get a metal distortion pedal for cheap. I have a pedal stashed away that I don't use that sounds really good that is real cheap. It is the Danelectro Black Coffee. A few years ago Danelectro came out with several mini fx pedals, all named after food. The Black Coffee was their "metal distortion" pedal. It has surprisingly decent tone. It is $40 new. you can find it on ebay even cheaper. I happened to get mine free. I played bass for some friends (filling in) at this battle of the bands. Thanks to their good songwriting (and my chops on the bass ), we came in third. Every band member got free stuff from a local guitar store. I got $15 in picks, a knob turner, and a $30 cable. I had a guitar cable, and I didn't need that many picks, so I took back one box of the picks (ticketed at $10) and the cable to the place. I don't think they were supposed to take them back but the person did and I got the pedal from them. It's a good pedal for free. If you want to go higher than than, there are several options all the way up the price range. But if you go over $100, you might as well have him save his money until he can get a decent used pre. I got a fender M80 pre I am in love with for $150 used. So yeah, what kind of distortion sound does he want?


*edit* Man! I took a long time to type! there was no responses when I started! And a big YES to that russian amp company! they Kill!

[drmorbius]

the guitarist in question is a really nice guy and saying anything mean to him seems like saying ten mean things to your average person. thanks for the heads up on brian's guitars. i hadn't thought of it but now that you mention it i've seen that sign while cruisin through carrboro. it's not the only music shop in the area, but it's the only guitar specialty shop for miles, which is weird since chapel hill has such a reputation for rock. i guess the explanation might lie in the fact that it has a reputation for tone-less static tinged indie rock, so most of the musicians can't tell when their gear is broken anyway. i'll keep an eye out for that band you mentioned. thanks for the advice and the sympathetic ear.

[drmorbius]

okay, about the selector lever. i should clarify: it has five positions, but when it is placed in four of those, there is no sound. actually, in one position there is sound, in the second there is barely any at all, and in the final three none.

i wish i knew more about the guitar. it is a fender strat type knockoff, but with two pickups next to each other instead of the slanted one on the strat that's next to the string saddles.

strike two for the morley distortion.

he's going for a metal sound, very crunchy yet articulate, kind of like slayer. what he DOESN'T want is thin fuzzy distortion. any more pedal ideas?

[pantone247]

Regarding the sounds, that one is easy. The Peavy Bandit is a complete piece of junk tone-wise. There is very little to be done except render it permanently unusable while the guitar player is not looking. I kid! I kid!

I agree here completely, any of those peavy big solid state 1x12" are generally bad, to my ears anyhow. They were the practice room amp de riguer in Dublin for many years. Also for wattage per $$$ they were good value... But to me it was just flat dead souding loud piece of crap.

Something sharp and piercing about the upper mids and highs being really grating and no roundness to the bass sound... maybe they do a good scooped mid thing, and I hear for ultra clean country picking they get prasie. But for anything rock, where you need a warm rounded mid and a fat low end (well generally...). Anyhow I've never liked them, in my esxperience this could be a place to start.

[Spark]

i wish i knew more about the guitar. it is a fender strat type knockoff, but with two pickups next to each other instead of the slanted one on the strat that's next to the string saddles.

Its a humbucker? Its probably a good choice in pickup styles for the sound it seems like he is going for. You might want to get the guitar checked out too see if even the humbucker is working correctly.

he's going for a metal sound, very crunchy yet articulate, kind of like slayer. what he DOESN'T want is thin fuzzy distortion. any more pedal ideas?

Slayer uses (or did use) Marshall JCM-900's or JCM-800's (big tube driven, high gain amps). Its going to be pretty hard to get that sound out of a pedal.. Maybe the best way to go is to see if you can rent or borrow a more applicable amp.

[theinfamousfish]

that is 2 singles and a humbucker, it sounds like (2 singles next to each other, each oppositly phased to cancel, or "buck", the hum). The question now is, in what positions do you get/don't get sound? You have one setting with sound and another with a bit of sound. If that one is next to the one that works (probobly is), then what you have is one pickup that works, and at least one pickup that is either blown or has a wiring problem at the pickup. Depending on how they are set up, you may have 2 messed up, or, if the pickups are dasiy chained, then the middle one is messed up. You just need to go get it checked out. I mean, if you knew a lot about guitars and had a bit of electronic repair experience, you could probobly open up the pickgaurd and isolate the problem. If it is a wiring problem (the one we hope for that is cheaper and can happen when a guitar falls), then you could probobly fix it. Just need to resolder the pickup connections. If the connections look good, you can either take it for repair, or buy a new pickup. Good duncan pickups are about 100 bucks. But I would want to know if it is a pickup problem before buying a new pickup. Although a duncan or dimargio or whatever would increase the quality of the guitar tremendously.

About sound. There are tons of pedals. The bigger danelectro is good too. The BOSS metal pedal has a real good tone and diversity. The traditional BOSS distortion pedal is good as well. However, I would not go that expensive for him. Since it sounds like he has a preamp problem (the pre in the Peavy head sucks, it sounds like), what you want to have him save up for is a good pre. Get the danelectro black coffee. You will be happy with it. use your amp to pump up what you lack. That way you haven't spent 70 or 80 dollars, and still have a good sound that is an improvement over where you are. Then, get a good pre. you can get one used on ebay for a couple hundred. Then just use the existing amp for the poweramp to drive it. Then, when he wants to upgrade, he can get a good power amp. If he ever wants to. I am at the pre amp with existing head stage. I have a complete solidstate system, but it has 300 watts of push on this side alone. If I got another cab, I'd have 600. But anyways. I digress.

fish

[Punkity]

he's going for a metal sound, very crunchy yet articulate, kind of like slayer. what he DOESN'T want is thin fuzzy distortion. any more pedal ideas?

I looked for years to get that sound out of a petal. I don't think it can be done. What you need for that sound is an overdriven tube amp, perhaps with a boost from a petal (not distortion boost, but signal [volume] boost). That is the only way I've found to do it. As I said earlier a Mig 60 with everything on 10 will do the trick and will get your friend very close to the sound he craves. But it will be very, very loud.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?vi ... eName=WDVW
This is around the usual price for these things, $250-$300.

I don't know about the Mig-50, but I suspect the outcome will not be quite the same in terms of tone.

If your friend insists on using a petal, he will never be satisfied with his tone if he puts the distortion on 10. This, unfortunately, is one of those hard lessons to learn. Very hard. There is no crunchy or articulate with distortion on 10, only fuzz and haze.

My best, cheapest solution would be the Mig-60 head, pretty much any cheap used cabinet (the Fender M-80 cabinets are suprisingly good for the price), and a used MXR Distortion+ petal. The trick is, again, everything all the way up on the Mig (no turning down the mids, NO! NO! NO!, there will be zero articulation and all fuzz otherwise. Another hard lesson to learn), the volume on the MXR all the way up, tone set as desired, with the distortion less than 40%. This last bit will add the extra bit of crunch I'm sure is desired. Grand total is around $450 max.

The trick here is to use the volume on the guitar to control the sound. All the way down=just a bunch of hiss from the amp (can't be avoided). Up just a bit=the tone is pure cream, a perfect hard blues sound. Up about half way=we have crunch a-plenty but not over the top, good for hard butt-rock. Instant panty remover. All the way up...HOLY SHIT. All of the volume settings on the guitar volume knob will be the same loudness, and only the tone will change. Don't ask me why right now, that is a subject for another thread.

Your guitar player will not listen to a word of this. I wouldn't have back then either. If he keeps playing, he WILL be doing this within 5 years, looking back thinking how much of a tard he was.

[theinfamousfish]

Slayer uses (or did use) Marshall JCM-900's or JCM-800's (big tube driven, high gain amps). Its going to be pretty hard to get that sound out of a pedal.. Maybe the best way to go is to see if you can rent or borrow a more applicable amp.

Only during recording. IMO, borrowing amps for every gig is a pain for you and whoever you borrow from. Makes you look unprofessional as well. But yes, during recording, try to get good gear. Borrow or rent. Unless you have found that great sound that is distinctively you, and then you want to stay with it. But I don't think he has, obviously. And I would still say go the way of getting a good pre. For the $450 you can get a heck of a tube preamp that will sound as good if not better and will have much more volume control. IMO at least. *shrugs*

[Mzkguy]

Sounds like your pickup selector is shot or the connections to it are gone. That's a big part of the muddiness problem. It sounds to me like your guitar player is stuck on the neck position pickup. That pickup has the most low end/muddy tone. Definitely take the guitar into a shop for repair. Have you read the last Tapeop? There's a good section on guitars & keyboards in it.

As for the Bandit amp....they're kinda thin & brittle on the distortion end of things. If you're looking for something small & not-so expensive, check out some old Univox combo amps on Ebay. Some of the 1x12" combos sound like Plexi's when they're turned up. Also, they're not so super loud that you can't stand in the same room with them

Oh yeah, if you can get your hands on a ribbon mic like a Royer 121 that will help out as well.

-Cheers