mixing high end

LeedyGuy · Post by **LeedyGuy** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 2:23 pm

My current project is a mix for a band that did their own tracking. they did a pretty okay job of it and the sounds are mostly all usable.

i seem to have a chronic mix problem though: the high end is just shite. i cant get it to sound "bright" like anything that i A-B it with. the band keeps asking for it to be "brighter". i think what they really mean is airier and with more space in it which could give the illusion of bright, but i cant really get that mud out of it. its just dark. its not unbearable, but you can really hear it when you put something "real" against it. everything is pretty clear though, but its just dark. this happens to me all the time and not just on this project. do i need to drop 10 grand on some API's to get the "airiness" that everyone is looking for? should i just do the best i can and hope they can open the top end a little in the mastering? i think the worst thing to do is inject a whole bunch of channel eq into it (of which im using very little...just some subtractive on the low end of the guitars) and crank the high end a little, but i could be wrong?

i'm mixing in the box on Cakewalk Sonar 3.1.1 with all the good plugins. the music is basically rock type stuff with the guitars recorded a little too overblown, but its okay. the whole thing was recorded either with the preamps in the newer MOTU 896 or a decent Mackie and with 57's, sm81's, and a shure ksm84 (i think...?)

any help, advice, experience, wisdom is much appreciated.

dynomike · Post by **dynomike** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 2:43 pm

Mastering?

Do your greentothink post-mastered tracks have this high end problem? I didn't think so.

Could be.. and if its dark, maybe they made the mistake of using a dark mic??

Also.. poor transient response from the preamps makes a big difference, you're using mackies right.. and who knows what they were using, but certainly using a more surgical pre like a sytek or even an rnp will improve transient response, which doesn't necessarily equal high end (volume) but definately more high end energy, as the highs are much clearer and more present.

But don't ask me, I've got behringer preamps.

cgarges · Post by **cgarges** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 2:47 pm

I could guess at a whole bunch of things that could be an issue, but one of the best things you can do is to pick a reference CD of material not terribly unlike what the band's going for and directly compare the two. Be sure to level-match the reference disc to the current mixes (purely by volume, not by compression). Listen carefully to all the elements--compare kick drum sounds, overhead sounds, ambience on the drums (and how bright or dark it is), how much bass (guitar) there is in the mix, guitar tones, overall effects, etc. Doing a direct comparison like this will help you learn a lot about both your mixes and what the band wants.

I would send it to a good mastering engineer as well. Trust what you know in the mix stage (don't second-guess yourself too much) and get it sounding good. I'll be happy to recommend some good mastering guys if you PM me. Once you get the mastered version back, call the mastering engineer and ask what he or she heard and what they think you can do to improve the mixes and make their job easier. Better yet, attend the session if you can. You'll learn a lot about your specific practices this way.

Sounds like you're on the right track.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

joeysimms · Post by **joeysimms** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:23 pm

Here's advice I got from Chris Garges a while back, and I've used it ever since: Use your eq (if you need to at all) to cut or get rid of what's worst about the guitar tracks, and you'll find it helps brighten up the overall picture without just cranking treble. Sweep the mids with the boost all the way up until the ugliest sound is found. Then cut that freq. by a couple db.

cgarges · Post by **cgarges** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:26 pm

Whoo-hoo!

Chris

drumsound · Post by **drumsound** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:11 pm

You might consider a nice EQ on the 2-mix... Add just a bit of air instead of on the channels.

vvv · Post by **vvv** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:55 pm

Some things that (sometimes) work for me:

High-pass-filter the bottom off of the guitars and bass, maybe 50Hz down. Try notching some 400Hz out of the toms if there are a lot of them.

Make EQ space for the individual instruments, so they don't step on each other; ex., if two guitars are stacked, notch one a dB or two at 1kHz and notch the other at 2kHz. Maybe add a dB at 2kHz on the one that is notched a dB at 1kHz, etc.

You can HPF the vocals and snare, and, actually, the two-mix, too. I often HPF 40Hz and add a few dB shelving up at about 9kHz (10kHz is often said to be "airy"); Cool Edit 's FFT filter is excellent for this.

Less reverb, more short delays, and HPF and LPF the reverb if you can.

Panning can help, and consider less stereo tracks; ex., make the keys mono, pan mono rhythm guitars a little outside, etc.

Just my $00.002.

Zeppelin4Life · Post by **Zeppelin4Life** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:19 pm

well aside from all the obvious 'vintage' analog tape and tubed equp I would recommend, the harshness tends to come from lousy preamps. of course, you cant fix tis now, so I recommend sweeping the tracks for bad EQ areas. Ive found if the cymbals are harsh, its usually another track thats not fat enough...or visa versa..sometimes something you totally wont expect wil be the key. and reverb CAN soften treble and open it up if you use it right. nothing is worse than overly harsh, dead, hi-hats or something. you want a mellow, ambient sound

good luck

dokushoka · Post by **dokushoka** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:30 pm

you want a mellow, ambient sound

I do?

@?,*???&? · Post by **@?,*???&?** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 10:02 pm

kentothink wrote:My current project is a mix for a band that did their own tracking. they did a pretty okay job of it and the sounds are mostly all usable.

i seem to have a chronic mix problem though: the high end is just shite. i cant get it to sound "bright" like anything that i A-B it with. the band keeps asking for it to be "brighter". i think what they really mean is airier and with more space in it which could give the illusion of bright, but i cant really get that mud out of it.

any help, advice, experience, wisdom is much appreciated.

We were mixing this record for a band called 'Knapsack' that was signed to Alias Records. It was their debut disc. At the time, the band was listening fervently to 'Drive like Jehu'. The Drive like jehu recordings were that ultra-brite SST Records sounding stuff. Anyway, at the time, we were obsessing over bottom end. Clean and deep. PJ Harvey's "Working for the man" had the bottom end of doom. Anyway, we're doing recalls for the band and the band keeps saying they want it brighter. Make it brighter. At one point, I mute the bass guitar and the band looks up and says, "Yeah! That's it! What did you do?" The bass player was on the couch and it became evident that he was an expendable band member.

For you though, that region between 150Hz and 440Hz is going to be crucial. Which is deeper- the bass or the bass drum? The thickness in the guitars, can you clear them out with regard to where they overlap with the bass? Choose what to favor and really, if need be, ignore those things and focus on the vocal and see what supports that best.

Professor · Post by **Professor** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:37 pm

Normally I would say trim out some of the low mids from tracks that are weighing down the mix, roll off the bass from tracks that don't need to produce sound below 40, 80, 120 Hz, etc. but it seems that's all been covered already. So I'll hit a few other possible suggestions.
1. Mute and un-mute channels so the mix is reduced to just one instrument, and then built back up in several different combinations to see which instruments are 'weighing down' the mix the most. Then you'll know which ones are darkening the mix and can treat them as suggested above.

2. It's possible that they tracked with a lot of dynamic mics - and dynamic mics tend to roll off high frequencies, and will generally not have the transient response, air or detail you would get from condensers. No, this isn't always bad, but if you have a mix that is particular dull and 'close' sounding, that can be a culprit. Try to find out which tracks have dynamics and which have condensers, and don't be afraid to give a little boost to the tracks with high-end available to boost. For example, if the Neumann 84s were over the drumset, then give them a little +2dB shelf from 9k or 10k up, but if you are trying to boost anything above 12k out of an SM-57 on a 4x 12" guitar cabinet, then don't bother because those frequencies ain't likely to be there.

3. Pick a particularly dull sound, dial some of it into a reverb and solo the reverb so you only hear the 100%wet processed sound. Now dial through some reverb possibilities to find one that is especially bright and not too long. Maybe a bright plate, or a small tiled room, etc. - and adjust the decay timing and any delays so you have very minimal or non-existant delays and short decays, but just a quick, bright, 'echo' of the original sound. Now clear the solo and dial a little bit of the dryest instruments into that reverb patch to help throw a little more brightness.

Oh, and tell the band to listen from the mix position, and not way back against the back wall where all the bass builds up in the room.

-Jeremy

fuu drakka · Post by **fuu drakka** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:50 am

don't be afraind to add some highs throughout your mix, sometimes, a little highs added on the over heads make a big difference if a mix is dull.

beebe · Post by **beebe** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:58 am

we ran through this procedure

http://www.recordingproject.com/article ... ?article=5

with our muddy small room home recording mix and it helped clear things up quite a bit... a lot of it is covered above already.

we also recorded the bass with an sm57... which i thought was crazy at first, but the low end it probably didn't let through i like to think made room for the kick.

try cutting and pushing up faders before adding. they may need a low cut on any close mic'ed guitar. try starting the mix with the drum overheads then work the rest in gradually.

choke3d · Post by **choke3d** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:24 am

I'm guessing because you're mixing in the box, your problems with high end may be the same I have - that is - guitars / cymbals / vocals have less than smooth high end to begin with being tracked digital. My work around has really gone beyond my expectations: a 2-track 1/4 inch machine. I run my guitars and overheads (and sometimes vocs) through the tape machine, (slamming it pretty hard). Run them back into my Soundcraft board (after the tape!), and actually eq the highs up a few db. I'm able to make things much brighter in a prettier way, and the tape compression helps "fill the cracks" in the high end. The trick is to then find the "lag" that occurs because of the tape machine, and just move your tracks back to line up with the originals. All in all, a pretty fun, tactile way to "fix" tracks without spending hours jockeying plug-ins. Also, if your tape machine isn't calibrated, you can have some weird tempo issues, so make sure it's tight.
All in all, the best money I've spent on outboard processing...

LeedyGuy · Post by **LeedyGuy** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:56 pm

wow
thanks for your help everyone....especially the "mute the bass player thing" thats pretty funny...and its the truth here too.

i like the tape machine idea...but i dont have one! im going to try this stuff and let you know the results. im glad im not the only one...

i feel like if it was done with great preamps (which i have never used) that it would just BE airy and sweet by nature in the top end? am i wrong?

Message Board

mixing high end

mixing high end

Re: mixing high end

Re: mixing high end

Re: mixing high end

Re: mixing high end

Re: mixing high end

Re: mixing high end

Re: mixing high end

Re: mixing high end

Re: mixing high end

Re: mixing high end

Re: mixing high end

Re: mixing high end

Re: mixing high end

Re: mixing high end

Who is online