To Many Tracks To Mix!!

[Ryan Silva]

I was wondering if anyone has ran into the "Overdub Adict". You know the client, they think that the more tracks you 'track'. the bigger the mix. I am working with a group right now that has been very open to sugjestions, and advice on arangment and amp choice, but they just don't know when to quit on the overdubs. I say this knowing that thier intention was not to overwork these songs. I guess I feel that thier getting away from what they wanted to do originaly. Not to mention how good evreything sounded before they figured out, that we had no track limitaions. It's like the kid in the candy store routine:P. I'm finding in very hard to mix these tunes, and would like to think that it's because their is just way to much going on. So if anyone has any diplomatic advice, I would love to hear it.

Thanks

[joelpatterson]

"Yo, dudes. Lissen up for a second.

Somehow you all sound better when you're playing together. All these overdubs, we're kind of losing the focus, you think?"

[ubertar]

When I first went into a studio as a musician, I did the same thing. One thing that might help is to suggest thinking in terms of frequency bands. That you can fill in the spaces, but don't want to put more than one peg in the same hole, so to speak. You can use what they've done so far to point out examples of where an overdub is masking part of a basic track, and detracts from the song as a whole.

[leigh]

So if anyone has any diplomatic advice, I would love to hear it.

Two questions:

Are you producing this band, or just engineering?

Are you getting paid by the hour?

Leigh

[A.David.MacKinnon]

Get a good mix happening with the origanal tracks then start adding the overdubs one by one. If it doesn't add any magic to the tune dump it and move on to the next one.

[TooLoFi]

What kind of overdubs are they doing that you consider "over the line?." I've tracked choirs where each voice was double tracked to give it that full sound. That's once case where It has to be done. If these guys are doing 3 layers of the same vocal line, I would draw the line. Whatever the situation, if you are getting paid hourly, just deal with it man. If you have an artistic voice in the project, then feel confidant enough to know what your talking about, and tell them. a lot of people are ignorant to the recording process and ignorant to how things should be done, but sometimes this ignorance can spawn the greatest creativity in the artist.

[heylow]

Get a good mix happening with the origanal tracks then start adding the overdubs one by one. If it doesn't add any magic to the tune dump it and move on to the next one.

I'm going to have to say "word" to that advice. And it bears repeating that if it doesn't add some magic, 86 it.

[chema]

i think every "artiste" you'd have to approach differently and diplomatically, i guess that's just kind of a situation dependent personal thing, like don't tell them how bad it sucks at the end of a twelve hour plus mixing day, as far as what to say, tough one; i can relate this though, i let a band go rookie style overboard earlier this year - i was ok but not totally stoked with the mix, it was passable on a decent stereo, so the f*cking critic that reviewed it kind of likes the songs and ends by saying that "the production was exteremely muddy" (he mentioned that he listened to it on his goddamn computer). whose fault was it? mine and mine alone! for not reigning in or eliminating the excessive bullcrap that was distracting from the songs (and for not mixing on a three inch mono speaker ) i should and could have held more sway but didn't; and none of this "well i wasn't producing" stuff, it has my name on it and it reflects on me no matter what the overall circumstance is, the listener doesn't know any of that and it cost me a client, maybe more than one, and finger pointing is counter - productive; so try and avoid that situation, trust me, it sucks! i think a little tension in the studio while you explain to them why you think what you think is better than ultimately putting out a record you might regret.

[ubertar]

Another possibility is doing two mixes: one with "the works" and a stripped-down version and play both for them. I wouldn't do this for every song, just one song to edjumacate them.

[Ryan Silva]

Thanks for the "diplomatic advice" that was what I was looking for.
I have made the EQ Spectrum 'one peg a hole' argument. Unfortunatly(and fortunatly) they really do most of there songwriting in there head, and have had very little studio experience. I think I will prepare two mixes, and try to get to them in that manner.

They are paying me by the project(song at as time), and I have vested some creative input to this project i.e. I love the tunes. It's going to take some talking, but I think they will come around.
As far as what I mean by 'Overdubs', I'm talking samples. Samples that are just there to be cute. and to drive home the lyrics. If it was just doubles of VOX or Guitar I could just bury it in the mix if I did'nt like it. But with these samples they are all spoken phrases. Hard to bury without it sounding like a mistake.

Thanks

[heylow]

Sound wierd.

What kind of music is it?



heylow

[Ryan Silva]

They Might Be Giants, Ween, nothing very serious.

That's the problem, riding the line between funny and silly. Video game samples for a song about video golf would seem nessesary. But just not this goddamn many. To there credit their great songwriters and have writen very easy to understand lyrics, that make me laugh out load hour after hour. I think they have done such a good job at making the humor come through without the junk, I would like them to stand on those principles. Damn it , it sounds like I producing this, doesn't it?

Thanks

[swingdoc]

Another piece of advice would be to let their artistic creation occur through your engineering. You might be surprised. If they have that great of writing abilities, maybe they hear or know something you dont. Maybe they are trying something "new". Sometimes new things break old molds. Give their work a chance.

[Family Hoof]

So if anyone has any diplomatic advice, I would love to hear it.

I forget where I heard it, maybe an interview with Andy Wallace or something, but this has been ingrained in my mind ever since:
A big part of mixing is arranging. If the song is well arranged (and recorded) it will mix itself. If it isn't, however, it's your job as the mixer to take out the parts that don't work.

I'd like to add:

Mute automation was invented for a reason. Mixing is a very creative process. If they're paying you to mix it without their presence or input then it's up to you. Just ask yourself "is this part helping the song?" "does the mix sound better if I eq the shit out of everything to make it fit or if i just take it out?"

Alternatively, you can keep all (most of) the extraneous overdubs and mix them really low, or very ambient, or some other sort of way where they're not stealing the spot light from the lead vocal & featured instruments. Just get yourself out of the mindset where "everything HAS to be heard for it to be a good mix". it doesn't.

The good mix is the one that best serves the song. if the band can't understand this (the bigger picture - honor the song, not your ego) then they're stupid fucks and deserve the cluttered mixes they get.

[maz]

I was wondering if anyone has ran into the "Overdub Adict".

Yes. He's typing this reply to your post!!!

When I'm working on guitar overdubs by myself (playing and engineering at the same time), I tend to play too many parts that that play throughout the whole song. Then when mix time comes, the mute button is my best friend.

Even when I'm not playing and it's just the band, I've found that if I give them a great mix- usually no one asks why any particular part got axed. And if they do, it's an easy talk to tell them that I had to serve the song and weed out some parts. But the key is I've got to have given them a great mix to make them forget about all their pet parts!