Apogee

[XXF]

I've noticed people talking about Apogee A/D converters being used with computer recording. How are these converters different and or better than just going through a MOTU 2408 or Digi unit?

[stillafool]

I have the rosetta's, manufactured about 3 or 4 years ago. Compared to the stock converters on my echo layla 24, they sound warmer, a bit more transparent -- especially on material with high frequency content.

[MASSIVE Mastering]

Even after using cheaper Apogee's (Rosetta, Mini series) you'll find yourself throwing your Digi and MOTU converters in the garbage.

Assuming that you don't need the interface...

Assuming that you do, you'll at least find yourself using the MOTU and especially your Digi converters as little as possible.

Step up to the nicer Apogee stuff or a set of Lavry converters, and yeah, you'll probably start throwing the other stuff away even if you DO need it.

[stillafool]

A thousand dollars for 2 channels (which is what I paid) isn't exactly cheap, unless you're George Martin. In my quest for a better signal chain, I bought these rosetta's and a universal audio 6176 channel strip. In all honesty, I actually regretted buying the apogees, which broke after a couple of months of using them, and their tech support let me know that, indeed, I was no George Martin.
The UA channel strip was worth every penny I paid, and was the biggest improvement in my signal chain. The Rosetta's made a marginal, but noticeable difference, at best. If I were you, I'd get a Creative emu 1820m, which is 500 dollars, for which you get several AKM converters (used in Pro Tools HD). If you want to spend more money, go buy an external clock for use with the emu 1820m, and I guarantee you, you won't notice the difference.

[trianglelines]

I got a screamin' deal on a Rosetta 96K out-of-box no manual at a GC ($400).

It improved tracking going into a Mackie SDR pretty dramatically and has proven crucial in my mixes off a Mackie 24/8 into a Alesis Masterlink.

Everything sounds better. Of course the stock converters were marginal to start... but it was a good upgrade for me and I use it for clock regardless of the converters if I'm doing more than two channels at a time. In fact I moved my recording sample rate from 24/96K to 24/88.2 for tracking AND mixdowns so I could make the most of that clock. It was that significant an improvement.

YMMV.

-TimT

[stillafool]

Another thing you could do is get the MOTU HD 192, which has 12 AKM converters, and then get a fancy shmancy external clock for about a grand or less, which should make that unit sound just as good as any apogee converters. Unless I'm mistaken, unless there's a faulty ground or bad wiring, the only two things in a ADA converter that are going to make any difference in the sound are the converters themselves and the clock. So a emu 1820, or a MOTU hd 192, or any other prosumer unit with high quality converters, should sound just as good as apogee if you use an apogee clock.

[XXF]

Wow. Lots of great responses. Thanks. I would like to have the 8 ins and outs so I can't really bypass the audio interface, can I? I have about $8,000 to spend on my upgrade, any other thoughts?!

[MASSIVE Mastering]

I'd get at least one "great" set of A/D and D/A. Lavry LE4496 would be a fine choice at around $2500... That still leaves plenty for other cool stuff.

[Quest Poetics]

Find a used Apogee Trak2 for about $2800 (2 channels of A/D, 8 channels of D/A, great clocking and two transparent mic pres w/ 90 db of gain...) I have one and it's a god send for my small studio...Yes it's $2800 but I use it for everything! Clocking, d/a for monitoring (You'll be amazed how important d/a is for monitors) plus I can send stuff to outboard gear and keep the d/a and a/d sounding great...

Also you can get the Focusrite ISA 428 (4 channels of mic pres) w/ the 8 channel A/D card and you instantly have 10 total channels of great a/d and 8 channels of d/a along w/ 6 channels of mic pres....(When you factor in the TRAK2 also) The isa 428 w/ the digital card is about $2100...

You said you had $8000 to spend, so you'll still have some money left over for the colorful mic pres...Personally I'd go w/ the lunchbox type of pre's after that because you can expand for so cheap....Anyhow...Just my opinions...

[stillafool]

My philosophy on ADA converters, like anything digital, they're relatively disposable, so if they follow Moore's Law for computers (which musical stuff unfortunately doesn't), they'll be worthless in 5 years, although maybe still working. I'd go the cheapest route possible, and spend the money on something else. Unfortunately if you use Pro Tools, you're stuck with their hardware and expensive options like Apogee. If you use Nuendo/Cubase/MOTU, you have better options. I'd probably go with MOTU HD 192 (I think goes for about 1,800 dollars); this gives you 12 akm converters. If you're doing really critical work, then get an external clock, which I think cost about a grand. That will give you 12 of the best converters you can buy for around three grand. The rest of the money I'd spend on stuff that won't be worthless in 4 or 5 years -- like some killer pres, mics, etc. If you really want to go cheap, get an emu creative 1820 m (or maybe two), which also have AKM converters, and then use an external clock. I think you could probably get a killer sounding unit for a grand or less.

[Quest Poetics]

I do understand what you mean about a/d converters losing their value because you're right, they do...But I cant even stress how much better my mixes sounded once I upgraded from Digi 001/Ai-3 A/d conversion to ApogeeTRAK2/Focusrite ISA 428 A/D and D/a...

Bottom line is you there is way more clarity and accuracy for monitoring...Not to mention hotter/louder levels when recording into you sequencer...Now I'm not saying that you cant make a great record w/ just a 001 or cheap converters...All I'm saying is that if I'm charging someone to record at my studio good A/D conversion is a must have...Even if it does lose it's value down the road...Shit I dont care how good A/D converters get for the next 10 years...I"m quite happy w/ an Apogee TRAK2 for the next decade...But then again, I'm not one to go and impulse buy like others...I carefully study what I'm needing and buy things because I need them...Not because I want them...Anyhow that's just me...

Peace Everyone...

[stillafool]

The digi 001 converters are about 6 years old. The converters on the MOTU HD 192, the emu 1820, and the pro Tools HD units are all current akm models. I think some of the newer M-audio stuff uses AKM converters also. You'll definitely notice a difference between older budget converters, like those used on the 001, the Layla, and the lower-end MOTU stuff, and a good set of outboard converters. But, I don't think you'd notice any difference between the newer units I've listed provided you use an external clock. As I said, if you use Pro Tools, you're options are more limited to overpriced models like the apogees.

[chris harris]

The Apogee Rosetta has been around for a long time... and, they're far from worthless today. There are better, newer options available today, sure.. but, you said "worthless."

There are plenty of people still making great use of Laylas.

Even if you are right and they are "worthless" after 5 years, BFD.
If you can't recoup the cost of a $2000 converter in 5 years time, then you're doing something wrong.

"Disposable" computer technology is a fact of life in this business.

[stillafool]

All digital technology quickly becomes worthless, in terms of resale value, but possibly still useful (although unserviceable if it breaks). I still use my Layla 24 and the rosetta, and have no intention of getting any new gear until they break, primarily because I'm broke and I'm satisfied with my sound. But when I do buy a new digital audio interface, I hope I have better options, from a value standpoint.

[LTA]

Unless I'm mistaken, unless there's a faulty ground or bad wiring, the only two things in a ADA converter that are going to make any difference in the sound are the converters themselves and the clock.

You forgot about the PLL on the converter. Cheaper designs sloppily follow the clock. If the pll circuit is really bad, you can even degrade an AD/DA by using an expensively accurate clock source.[/img]