Lessons?

[dirty]

All right. All my song ideas sound the same. And they all suck. Either that or they just hopelessly ape someone else's good song (i.e. E. Smith, W. Oldham, Four Tet.)

Once, long long ago, I played piano as a kid. I could read music. I was okay. I remember I played a lot of Bartok at a recital.

But now, I can't read music. I can barely pick out a tune. My main instrument is the guitar, but I just play the minor pentatonic scale, and all my chord "progressions" are variations on the same damn theme. (Think "white blues")

So should I take guitar lessons? Should I take piano lessons again, even though I have a sinking feeling that I've lost that for good? I'm just trying to think of ways to improve my ability to a) write good songs that I wouldn't be ashamed to play for people and b) be better able to play with other musicians.

A good friend of mine is a GREAT banjo player. Another is a wicked Dobro/guitar/uke/everything player. I would love to be able to just jam with them without boring all of us to death.

[jeddypoo]

no. Well, actually, do you have a good ear? If you do, then lessons could do more harm than good. The only lessons I?ve ever taken were jazz theory lessons- not instrument lessons. I taught myself to play piano, bass, drums, and guitar, all well, because I have a good ear and learning theory made it even easier to find my own way. Not that I?m here to brag. I?m just saying- your ear, i.e.- your ability to hear and understand relative pitch reliably, is your most valuable asset as a musician. Lessons do not tend to concentrate on strengthening that asset or incorporating it with your understanding of melody and harmony and diatonic chord progressions and all that- they concentrate on technique- which is the least important aspect of being a good songwriter. And mostly what they teach you is ?the trick? to doing such and such a thing and ways to practice to build up dexterity. My advice to you is, if you feel confident in your natural ear, to either pick up a book on theory- a simple one is all you need, and pour through that, using piano as your instrument of instruction. That will open up a whole new world to you. Speaking personally, I found that once I understood how music worked on a fundamental level, my good ear allowed me to hear exactly what was going on in any piece of music I heard- whether it was The Beatles or Chopin or Fugazi, and identify it, and hence replicate it. Since then, I have never looked at sheet music or lead sheets or chord charts to learn anything, and that was like 10 years ago. So yeah. That?s my ten pence.

[YOUR KONG]

What Jeddypoo said, plus:

How much time do you spend learning other people's songs? That can really open the doors. Even more so if you are able to think of the songs as I - IV - V rather than A - D - E.

I took lessons when I was young, then I started to teach myself stuff on my own (via jam sessions, theory classes, and Mark Levine's jazz theory and jazz piano books). I took started taking lessons again when I was 19 and found it immensely frustrating:

"You're not playing that part right."
"I know."
"Go practice it until you get it right."
"How much am I paying you per week?"

I learned more by playing with other theory-oriented players and going through the Real Book and writing my own tunes.

So, circling back - if you don't know how to play your favorite songs on guitar/piano, what better time than now to start learning how to play them?

[andyg666]

sounds to me like you're just jaded. not too hard to do in today's modern media culture... 5 images per second. beauty as a commodity (yeah, i can spell). radio music is designed to make money, not move people... how to get unjaded... short of a sharp blow to the head causing complete and total amnesia...

lessons could be a great idea--if you find the right teacher. the right teacher will inspire you to learn more about your instrument, to play more, to challenge yourself...

also, i'd suggest not only trying to learn and play other people's stuff, but listen to new music as well. read some reviews, see what looks (sounds?) good, pick up something random and give it a good listen.

pick a piece of music that is too hard to play or too complex for your ear to really digest at this point. dedicate yourself to learning to play it.

[maz]

no. Well, actually, do you have a good ear? If you do, then lessons could do more harm than good.

I think that's quite a suspect statement.

What good is a great ear if it doesn't know what to do with what it hears? Maybe you've had some bad teachers, but when you find a really great teacher, he/she can unlock things that no book could ever could.

That's what a really great teacher should do- analyze what you are doing, and help you get to where you want to go musically by getting you past the hurdles.

Also, when I used to teach guitar, I would tell students to go home and practice something, but only when they had obviously not spent much time working on it. Lesson time isn't practice time, they have 2 different purposes. I would never tell a student to just practice something if they are stuck on it. I'd try to find a way to get them to see it.

I don't know, I'm sure there are a lot of bad lesson experiences out there, but that's only because way too many teachers prove the cliche true that "those who can't, teach." (and those who can't teach, teach gym.)

I think all of the above ideas are good, but I also think that if you found a really great teacher, you'd do some great things for your playing.

[Brian Brock]

Going through songbooks will definitely open up your fingers to new chords on the guitar. But in terms of songwriting, I think songs are essentially words and melody - and no lessons are really going to give you skill in conjuring up either of those. The good news is that people can pretty much naturally come up with both. Learning english composition will help you craft your words, and learning theory and training your ear (they go hand in hand, in my experience) will help you understand the melodies you hear in your head.

[yardleyone]

i think that great song writing, and even performance, can often be about being aware of your own limitations and weakness, and learning to use or too exploit them, or at least hide them from you audience. Sometimes it is the actually hiding of the weakness that makes a musician great.

Similarly I've seen cases where technical proficiency was a songwriters greatest weakness. I've known guys that could play 9 instruments well, new their theory, and could sing with near perfect pitch... but the songs they're written have always been lacking, boring. Sure it's fun to watch them play... but it doesn't move you like something really evil you know?

Likewise I wouldn't say that it's technical proficiency, a great voic, or knowledge of theory that is behind someone like Will Oldham. In fact, it's more the way the Will ownes the lack of off these things where his power lies.

That's not to say that you can be lazy about it either. I think when you take this route you need to be prepared to but in more time, thought, energy, experimentation, and heartache than a technically astounding musician that plays by the rules.

[Spiderhead69]

I found that a study guide in arpegio's and scales actually help my overall composition skills as it helped be "Break out of my safety zone" that I had become acustome to playing in. . And a book on Piano chords help me hear / learn different chord voiceings which I transposed to guitar.

However, you must also have organized practise sessions where you set out goals to learn something instead of just jamming to records to try to see if you come up with some new stuff..

[cgarges]

no. Well, actually, do you have a good ear? If you do, then lessons could do more harm than good.

I think that's quite a suspect statement.

I totally have to agree, although Maz and I met in college, so maybe I'm full of shit.

I can't see how learning about how to further your craft and communicate more easily with others can hinder your abilities in and of itself. Some people have lots of chops and little feel. Some people can read the daylights out of something on a piece of paper and not be able to play the right thing for a song to save their lives. I don't think these things automatically go hand-in-hand. Moreso, I think someone who knows theory and can read AND play is an incredibly valuable asset to the art.

If you don't have any soul or creativilty, it's not very likely that the cause of that is taking lessons.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[dougo]

I find a good way to come up with new stuff is to just put your guitar in a different tuning. Why not tune all strings to E for instance. Even if you play the same fingerings you are used to it will sound completely different. This may in turn get those creative juices flowing to write something bold and new.

Just do it, what do you have to lose? I will be patiently waiting to hear all those beautiful mp3s with wacked out tunings.

Ladies and Gentlemen, start your engines!

Cheers,
dougo

[maz]

I can't see how learning about how to further your craft and communicate more easily with others can hinder your abilities in and of itself.

right.

But then again, maybe we're just justifying our (hopefully paid off) student loans!!!

[jeddypoo]

But then again, maybe we're just justifying our (hopefully paid off) student loans!!!

Heh, possibly. I?m certainly not advocating that a person shut themselves off from being able to communicate with other musicians. I didn?t go to music school, although I thought about it- but I?m glad I didn?t, because I?m the type of person who learns skills a lot better on my own, figuring out my own learning system, than trying to fit into someone else?s. Perhaps this is some sort of dyslexia? I?m not entirely joking. Anyway, no, I don?t think that lessons will definitely do more harm than good, but, well- I remember I tried to take a piano lesson once. The woman handed me a little book with some simple chordless pieces in it- practice pieces. This was after I had just taught myself a Chopin waltz by ear- mostly by memory, in fact, and here I was having to go back to ?Down By The Old Miller?s Daughter?s Apple Truck Chickadee La-La? or whatever. It was horrifying. The whole reason I thought I should lessons a try was that I knew that since my finger position technique was self-taught, it could probably be made more efficient. There is a diminished two-octave arpeggio in that Chopin piece that I was having problems playing using my Spartan technique. But because I had skipped all of these ?fundamentals?, I had to go back to something way under my level and pretend that I was a beginner all over again? No thanks. Obviously I didn?t go back. And I did figure out how to play that arpeggio.

Not that I?ll ever be a concert pianist- nor to I want that. I suppose that it could be that a great teacher can make all the difference, but I found that my natural ear was always jumping way ahead of whatever I was doing instrumentally, and I always felt like that was a good thing, since songwriting is so reliant on instinct and the subconscious (in my opinion).

Anyway, what I?m really trying to say is that I really feel like music pedagogy, by and large, has a really counter-intuitive and often anti-creative approach a lot of the time, and that I think people could really benefit in general by teaching themselves a lot more. I think you discover, that way, how much and what kind of natural talent you actually have- and I think a lot of people have a lot more than they realize. Personally, and again, I know that the tone of my posts sounds really arrogant and I apologize for that- but personally, I?ve known many, many classically trained musicians and many younger jazz musicians (my age), and I can?t tell you how many of them have asked me ?Jed, how can you just listen to a song once and play it right away? or something like that, and I have to ask ?What the hell is wrong with your schooling that you?re supposedly a sophisticated musician but you can?t hear 1-6-2-5 or when someone?s harmonizing in thirds or whatever??. I mean this happens a lot. So I don?t know. I don?t mean to rain on anyone?s parade. Anyway I?m at work right now and should be working. I?m enjoying the discussion, though.

[cgarges]

personally, I?ve known many, many classically trained musicians and many younger jazz musicians (my age), and I can?t tell you how many of them have asked me ?Jed, how can you just listen to a song once and play it right away? or something like that, and I have to ask ?What the hell is wrong with your schooling that you?re supposedly a sophisticated musician but you can?t hear 1-6-2-5 or when someone?s harmonizing in thirds or whatever??

It's more likely because they haven't found the right teacher or aren't applying what they've learned in lessons--not simply the fact that they are taking lessons.

I think that applies to plenty of things--the wrong wedding photographer, the wrong financial advisor, the wrong auto mechanic, the wrong therapist, the wrong person recording your album, etc.

If you're taking piano lessons from a sixty year-old woman who's done nothing but teach classical piano or from someone who's done nothing but play in orchestras all their life, what makes you think that they're gonna know anything about being able to improvise? That's a different world.

The right teacher can help you achieve goals faster. It's that simple. If you're not happy with you teacher, find a different teacher. I did this in college one semester. My advisor was VERY understanding about it and I'm glad I pursued it.

I?m just saying- your ear, i.e.- your ability to hear and understand relative pitch reliably, is your most valuable asset as a musician. Lessons do not tend to concentrate on strengthening that asset or incorporating it with your understanding of melody and harmony and diatonic chord progressions and all that- they concentrate on technique- which is the least important aspect of being a good songwriter.

Again, this is absurd. That's what ear training is all about. A good teacher can teach you how to better your ears and your ability to mechanically translate what you hear into technique. The ability to hear something alone isn't nearly as valuable as the ability to hear something and be able to play it back quickly. Do you NEED a teacher for this? Of course not, but to suggest that a teacher will automatically get in the way of this sort of thing is just naive and closed-minded.

Sorry--I'm not trying to knock on you personally. You said this was an interesting discussion. I'm just trying to keep it interesting.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[jeddypoo]

that's fine! I don't take it personally! Of course, I agree- being able to hear something and play it right away is the main point of having good ears. But I maintain that there IS something wrong with the way people learn music, if so many different trained musicians from different schools have said the same thing to me.

Hey- I'm not trying to take away business from music teachers- I've given drum lessons and guitar lessons myself and was glad to be able to exploit myself for the money. What I am saying is that ear-training and the incorporation of that training into a theory comprehension should be the main focus of music pedagogy, in my mind, and it isn't, I've been shown time and time again.

Songwriting, as far as I'm concerned, is about two things- imagination and craft. Nowhere in there does "emotional catharsis" or "honesty" or whatever come into play in making or breaking a song as memorable or not. This, of course, is bound to garner a few disagreements. But that's off-topic. What I'm saying is this: the imagination part of songwriting is the subconcious part of it- not the sole creative part, but the more intuitive skill. The "craft" part is where your intellect gets involved- arranging, fine-tuning, and even recording and mixing and producing- mostly things that are learned. Of course, knowing theory is going to make that process easier- although sometimes it can take away from the occurence of "happy accidents". I'm a better songwriter for knowing theory- because I know exactly how to get down what I hear in my head, and I generally know what something is going to sound like before I try it. This makes the process or error and repeat a lot shorter, however imagination and intuiton are still the essential parts of it. And those are the parts that you were'nt trained for.
I don't know. I'm not going anywhere with this anymore, maybe.

[spankenstein]

It's not the training or lessons that suck the soul out of the music even when it seems like. I've known a lot of people, myself included, that went down the technical, theoretical side. There are two distinct things going on and while they shouldn't clash a lto ocf times people let the technical side take over. It's all a balance.