Patchbay Strategy Help

general questions, comments and ideas about recording, audio, music, etc.
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swingdoc
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Patchbay Strategy Help

Post by swingdoc » Sun May 11, 2003 9:27 am

A while back we had some nice threads on the different patchbay strategies.
Can we go back to that and re-list some of your favorite signal path patches?
I remember ottokbre had some good suggestions.
In particular, can you detail your patch chain from recorder onward, with attention to how your inserts are setup?
I'm still struggling with an effective / useful strategy.
Thanks

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Re: Patchbay Strategy Help

Post by markpar » Sun May 11, 2003 11:38 am

I use mine as a mic preamp patchbat, so I don't have to keep running around behind the racks with a flashlight. That way I can patch different compressors into the path before hitting the board.

I also use my patchbays for taking the aux sends and buss outs into different processors and then back into the board.

Right now I'm using Neutrik 1/4" balanced bays but recently scored an ADC 96 point TT bay for $60. Man, that' a lot of soldering, though. :)

-mark

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Re: Patchbay Strategy Help

Post by dwelle » Sun May 11, 2003 4:30 pm

hey swingdoc, one way to skin a cat, and it's worked really well for me...

i take my outs of my tape deck and run them all to a half normaled bay, and then on to the mixer. this allows me to affect the signal BEFORE it hits the electronics in the board. it further allows me to mult a signal, send it somewhere, fuck it up, and then patch into a free channel on my console. that way you still have the clean signal where it should be, and you can bring up the affected signal to taste. further, if you need two effects on one signal without mixing the two (say you want to delay a signal AND compress it, but not at the same time) you can do that with this setup. mult it, affect it, run it to another channel, then use the insert points on the board to affect the clean signal. pretty handy way to go.

beyond that, bringing the insert points on your busses out to a bay is really handy also. if you also do this on a half normalled bay, you can get REALLY crazy. too crazy in fact.....

this is how my place is set up and i almost never use my channel inserts.... they aren't even wired to a patch bay!

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Re: Patchbay Strategy Help

Post by Randy » Sun May 11, 2003 6:10 pm

Here is yet another way-

I have a computer setup- a motu 24i and a 2408. I have mic cables going directly to my preamps in the board with direct outs from the board wired to the patchbay which are normalled to the 24i. I also have line inputs from the board connected to the patchbay, and the group outs connected to the patchbay. The 2408 is connected to the patchbay and normalled to line inputs on the board. Everything else, all outboard gear, is connected to two other patchbays, input and output.

This way I can have a clean signal path, and if I want to put something in the path, I just take it from the direct out on the patchbay and put it though the outboard gear, and then to one of the line inputs on the patchbay. Sometimes I will bypass the line in on the board after getting the sound and go direct to the 24i. If I want to have a bunch of channels through one piece of gear, I use one of the groups.


Randy

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Re: Patchbay Strategy Help

Post by NewYorkDave » Mon May 12, 2003 9:01 am

Laying out patchbays is part of what I do for a living, but it's impossible to give meaningful suggestions without knowing:

1. What you've got,

2. How you plan to use it, and

3. How many patch points you can afford.

The last one is a biggie. Given enough budget/space for patchbays, I'm inclined to make just about everything patchable. In real-world situations, you have to prioritize, and that's where (1) and (2) come in,

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Re: Patchbay Strategy Help

Post by cassembler » Mon May 12, 2003 9:22 am

Dave's comments aside, it's a good idea to get into the mentality of signal flow, trying to create a setup that logical and easy to find things, ESPECIALLY if freelancers are going to use your room.

In other words, try to group similar processors together, all compressors, all preamps, etc....

Anyways, your setup (like Dave said) is going to be different than everyone else's, so feel free to give us some details...
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Quality patch bays?

Post by davidp158 » Thu Oct 02, 2003 2:58 pm

I've got to get one, possilbly two, new 1/4" patch bays. I've been using a cheap HOSA balanced patch bay, and the contacts are starting to fail in many spots. I've tried cleaners but these are just cheap and falling apart. I also have an unbalanced Berhinger patchbay. Its holding better, but if I have to rewire one patch bay, I may as well buy two new QUALITY patchbays and wire up both at the same time. I'm not rich, but I am lazy...heh heh.

Any advice on some good quality 1/4" patchbays? What brands work well with all 1/4" jacks, and what does a quality patch bay cost? I need one balanced, and one unbalanced. Any reason why a balanced patchbay can't be used for unbalanced signals?

It seems that many of the cheap patchbays do not give good contact from the get go, and of course it only gets worse over time. I can't stand broken connections any longer!

Thanks in advance for any suggestions,
Dave Patterson

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Re: Patchbay Strategy Help

Post by soundguy » Thu Oct 02, 2003 3:07 pm

Dave-

If you are going with a cheapish bay, get a nuetrik, they are the best of the cheapies. The connectors are all PCB connectors, same design as the furman. The furman seems to be built better but its not. The Neutrik connectors are a much better connection and hold the TRS connector in there better. I have both in my bays currently, if you wiggle the connector around in the furman bay you get LOUD noticable noise. The neutriks DO NOT do that.

If you can afford to go to ADC's I would, they'll last a billion times longer.

dave

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Re: Patchbay Strategy Help

Post by davidp158 » Thu Oct 02, 2003 3:24 pm

Dave,

Thanks for the info on the Neutrik. I've looked at those and they don't appear to look as well built as the Furman, but I'll take your word for it that they are better. Looks can be deceiving!

What is a good price for a balanced 1/4" Neutrik patchbay? How much more for the same by ADC?

thanks again,
Dave

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Re: Quality patch bays?

Post by Flight Feathers » Thu Oct 02, 2003 3:28 pm

davidp158 wrote:I've got to get one, possilbly two, new 1/4" patch bays. I've been using a cheap HOSA balanced patch bay, and the contacts are starting to fail in many spots. I've tried cleaners but these are just cheap and falling apart. I also have an unbalanced Berhinger patchbay. Its holding better, but if I have to rewire one patch bay, I may as well buy two new QUALITY patchbays and wire up both at the same time. I'm not rich, but I am lazy...heh heh.

Any advice on some good quality 1/4" patchbays? What brands work well with all 1/4" jacks, and what does a quality patch bay cost? I need one balanced, and one unbalanced. Any reason why a balanced patchbay can't be used for unbalanced signals?

It seems that many of the cheap patchbays do not give good contact from the get go, and of course it only gets worse over time. I can't stand broken connections any longer!

Thanks in advance for any suggestions,
Dave Patterson
i happen to be selling 2 ADC patchbays right now. check this post.

thanks, sorry for the sales pitch.
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Flight Feathers <-- my band

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Re: Patchbay Strategy Help

Post by dwelle » Thu Oct 02, 2003 3:29 pm

try here.

http://www.flash.net/~motodata/patchbays/


very cool guy, great deals on used adc patchbays. that's what i use and thats where i got mine. just remember you'll need new patch cables with the adc style trs connectors, which are pretty pricey. compare with the new adc prices from markertek.

cheers....

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Re: Patchbay Strategy Help

Post by Flight Feathers » Thu Oct 02, 2003 3:37 pm

i just wired 3 96 point TT bays to my 24 channel Ghost and all the outboard stuff. i put the word doc of the layout on my server, check out http://www.ionrecords.com/tapeop/patchbaytemplate.doc . you can also use it to label your own bay, just clear out my crap. the first 6 rows are the left hand side of the bay, the last 6 rows the right. Green pairs mean normalled, red means inputs, in general. i have all the XLR's from my live room snake patched into the bay also.

i have an 8 channel snake hooked up the the inserts on the bay, but i don't have the plugged into the board, if i ever do need to use a channel insert, i plug in one of the jacks from the snake. i didn't see any need for having all 24 channel and 8 group inserts wired to the bay. i also did some wacky stuff like normalled points way accross the bay, like the outputs of the mic pre's into the MOTU inputs 1-6.

ayan
Last edited by Flight Feathers on Thu Oct 02, 2003 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Patchbay Strategy Help

Post by davidp158 » Thu Oct 02, 2003 3:39 pm

Thanks for the info on the ADC patchbays, but I don't think I've got the patience to wire something like that! I'm sure they are superior quality, and ideal for a permanent installation.

regards,
Dave

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Re: Patchbay Strategy Help

Post by tommy » Thu Oct 02, 2003 4:01 pm

Patchbay planning and wiring is indeed a daunting task. The planning of it alone gives me a headache.
I have a 96 point bay that Im pretty close to finishing that I use in conjunction with PTs LE, an RME AD/DA, 12 channels of outboard pres, and roughly the same amoumt of compression, a console and a few FXs.
1 row of 96 points is really not enough to accomidated what I have so here are the compromises I made.
I had my outboard preamp inputs connected to a labelled snake leading to my tracking room. The outputs of the preamp are on the 1st 14 top rows of the bay half normalled to the bottom row which is my LE and RME inputs. This allows me to go straight from preamp to inputs or break the normal and hit a compressor before input.
The next section, top and bottom of my bay is demormalled compressor I/Os. Then I have a 16 half normalled section after that which is tape output on top half normalled to console return on the bottom. Half normalling on this section allows me to break the normal with a compressor and/or eq before hitting the return. Then I have my FX I/Os de normalled and next to that I have my aux send section. That leaves me with a few points left which I havent planned out yet. A couple will probably be line I/Os from my 2 610 and my ampex line amps. Dunno. If I had a few patchbays, I would definaltely not make those compromises and put all of my I/Os on the bay as well as my snake. Probably a row of inserts on the bay as well. I hardly ever use the board pres but given no limits, I would stick those on the bay as well.

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Re: Patchbay Strategy Help

Post by wardshorsehead » Thu Oct 02, 2003 7:31 pm

a cool piece of freeware that i like to use is an app called patchbay manager by carrot soft. i had a link to it in an earlier thread, but i couldn't find it too quickly.

you can set up the number of points on the bay, the normalization scheme, and edit in each piece of gear in your setup with its respective ins, outs, and inserts.

the site doesn't say so, but it works fine on XP too.

free tool, works great. once you get the setup tweaked, you can print it all out and then figure what you need in terms of cabling and connectors. you can also save your setup, and add in pieces as you get them.

bets the heck out of setting something like this up in excel or word.

and free...if that isn't a tapeop mantra, i don't know what is.

good luck

frank

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