Hey everybody, Im relatively new to this board. I have been browsing through and reading for the last few months but this is probably only my second or so post. I had some questions about the internship process. I am a sophomore in a music recording technology program at Lebanon Valley College in Pennsylvania. It is part of the degree program to do a full internship either the summer before senior year or get all of your classes done early and do it during your last semester. I will most likely do it next summer. I was wondering if any studio owners/managers or people who have gone through similar internships had any advice. A few specific questions I had are:
Is it important (or at least a good idea) to find a studio in which you really want to work in after graduation? I can only imagine interning at one studio, doing all the cleaning and coffee making, gaining a good working relationship with them, receiving bigger and better tasks like assisting sessions, and then leaving, only to start that process over at another studio when Im looking for a paid job. What are your thoughts on this?
Another question. What is better, to work at a large, well known studio with big name clients or work in a smaller more intimate studio? I hear places like the Hit Factory take tons of interns but that means not as much personal time. Someone told me that the interns all sit around in a small back room soldering cables and every once in a while someone will call one of them to help set up a mic. I have no problem with paying my dues, but competing for face time with 10 other interns could be a huge drawback. Then again at a small studio I might get tons of face time, but not enough experience. I'm not really sure what's best. Perhaps a mixture of the two extremes? What would be some good studios in my area that I should begin looking at? I live in Glen Mills (Media) PA. Its about 30 min south of Philadelphia. I also could have an opportunity to use someone's apartment in NYC for very cheap if there were a studio there I could intern. Any suggestions at all would be great. Im so confused as to where to go. Thanks for any help...and sorry the post is so long. My parents and I were having this discussion tonight and we thought of a lot of questions and not many answers.
Internship Questions
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matt250321
- pluggin' in mics
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- Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:57 pm
- Location: Philadelphia, PA
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matt250321
- pluggin' in mics
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:57 pm
- Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: Internship Questions
Oh yea and I forgot... How do you afford (financially) to take an internship? I know there are very little to no paid internship jobs out there. Living in a major city or commuting every day is not cheap at all... luckily I have parents who are willing to help, but still.
"We are emotional salesmen" -Shelly Yakus
Re: Internship Questions
i started as an intern at Baby Monster in NYC, a small one room indie type studio...then a year later i went to work for the Hit Factory, a giant corporate multi room studio...I think both types of studio have their good and bad sides...
in a smaller studio you'll probably get into the room quicker as far as helping out and sitting in on sessions while doing all the intern type stuff. i setup a c12 on my first day then painted the bathroom, fun. you also run the risk of being behind any interns and assistants that started before you as far as being next in line for a promotion. there are assistants at some one room studios that have been assistants for 10 years. also, you'll only get hands on experience w/ the gear they have, which won't change too much over the years (w/ respect to console, tape machines, big stuff, etc...). it can also be hard to make a living at a small studio, they might not pay you as an intern and when you do get a paying position, it may be little money and few hours. also you might have to chase down your money. i did.
at the Hit Factory you start as a general assistant, you are paid minimun wage, but have the chance for fairly quick raises and health benifits. you'll be running around doing all kinds of stuff, going to the store , moving gear, inventory, etc. but you have the chance to advance along side the other employees. they have seven rooms and usually around 7-10 general assistants and 9 or 10 assistant engineers. also, they have pretty high turnover (people quitting, fired, moving on to engineering).you'll probably do a year as a general assistant. you will be exposed to a wide range of gear that is updated constantly. you'll work w/ big time producer/engineers/artists, but have to deal w/ big time egos and attitudes. if you make it through to being an assistant, the money can be pretty good, i was making $10 an hour w/ time and a half for overtime after 40 hrs, which would happen in 3 days...lots of hours.
as far as interning at a studio you want to work at, i don't think its a big deal. start out where you feel comfortable. if i started at the Hit Factory, i would'nt have lasted 2 months. in this biz switching gears and getting a new gig has to always be on your mind if you wanna make a living. with the before graduation internship you get a chance to find out what your looking for in a studio job, you can take a bigger risk, get some experience, go back to school, then find a job.
i hope something in this long ass post helped you out. good luck.
in a smaller studio you'll probably get into the room quicker as far as helping out and sitting in on sessions while doing all the intern type stuff. i setup a c12 on my first day then painted the bathroom, fun. you also run the risk of being behind any interns and assistants that started before you as far as being next in line for a promotion. there are assistants at some one room studios that have been assistants for 10 years. also, you'll only get hands on experience w/ the gear they have, which won't change too much over the years (w/ respect to console, tape machines, big stuff, etc...). it can also be hard to make a living at a small studio, they might not pay you as an intern and when you do get a paying position, it may be little money and few hours. also you might have to chase down your money. i did.
at the Hit Factory you start as a general assistant, you are paid minimun wage, but have the chance for fairly quick raises and health benifits. you'll be running around doing all kinds of stuff, going to the store , moving gear, inventory, etc. but you have the chance to advance along side the other employees. they have seven rooms and usually around 7-10 general assistants and 9 or 10 assistant engineers. also, they have pretty high turnover (people quitting, fired, moving on to engineering).you'll probably do a year as a general assistant. you will be exposed to a wide range of gear that is updated constantly. you'll work w/ big time producer/engineers/artists, but have to deal w/ big time egos and attitudes. if you make it through to being an assistant, the money can be pretty good, i was making $10 an hour w/ time and a half for overtime after 40 hrs, which would happen in 3 days...lots of hours.
as far as interning at a studio you want to work at, i don't think its a big deal. start out where you feel comfortable. if i started at the Hit Factory, i would'nt have lasted 2 months. in this biz switching gears and getting a new gig has to always be on your mind if you wanna make a living. with the before graduation internship you get a chance to find out what your looking for in a studio job, you can take a bigger risk, get some experience, go back to school, then find a job.
i hope something in this long ass post helped you out. good luck.
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Family Hoof
- buyin' a studio
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Re: Internship Questions
Get in the door at a couple of different studios like mentioned above, as soon as possible. It's the only way to REALLY KNOW if this truly something you want to do with your life. Will you burn out and change careers in several years? Do you have a backup plan? You may say no now, but after an endless, grueling stint with little or no pay you might start to feel otherwise. As far as being able to afford it, that's what parents are for - OR get lucky enough to find one that actually pays OR have a trust fund OR live off credit card debt for a while and sleep/eat at the studio. There are ways but it is tough. Sorry if this post sounds too pessimistic and cynical. I'm just trying to offer realistic advice.
Re: Internship Questions
Take whatever you can get.
And work your ass off.
Don't expect to make any money at it at first. If you need money -- like to live and stuff, then you need some sort of backup plan. Wait tables . . . become a stripper or a gigalo.
Or you could marry in to money. Target spoiled rich chicks who want to sing and be pop stars. Tell their daddy you're going to be a hot-shot record producer and make his girl famous some day. Be nice to her monther. All that kinda' stuff.
And work your ass off.
Don't expect to make any money at it at first. If you need money -- like to live and stuff, then you need some sort of backup plan. Wait tables . . . become a stripper or a gigalo.
Or you could marry in to money. Target spoiled rich chicks who want to sing and be pop stars. Tell their daddy you're going to be a hot-shot record producer and make his girl famous some day. Be nice to her monther. All that kinda' stuff.
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andyg666
- re-cappin' neve
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Re: Internship Questions
i interned at a mid-level studio with a good vibe and a good deal of clients--both nobodies and "important" folks. i learned a lot there (both technical and otherwise) about recording and being an engineer as a job as opposed to a hobbyist. not to disrespect a hobbyist, but there are different things to consider when it's your job vs. when it's what you're doing for fun. such as the client's experience... more on that later (not that you asked).
but the money thing is going to be a huge issue if you want to do this for a living and you're trying to pay rent in a big city. you will not make any money interning. when you start to make money, it will not be a lot. even $10 per hour is not going to get you very far in NYC...
i would suggest interning at some place where you'd like to work--and someplace that has enough business to be able to actually hire you some day. because you're right--when you start at someplace new, unless you've got a shitload of records under your belt and a pool of clients who will only record with you--you're going to start as an intern. unless you are like the soldering master in which case you may be able to get a job as a tech.
now the part you didn't ask for, just because it's 5:30 am and i still can't sleep:
the studio i interned at after recording school would have been the perfect place to work, and they really liked me there, but i simply could not afford to be there more than one or two nights a week, which made it impossible for them to promote me, because I just wasn't there enough, because i had to pay the rent. it didn't matter that i graduated at the top of my class or that i knew my shit from a technical standpoint--they wanted someone who they could trust with their clients and while i do happen to be good in that area as well, that's not something the studio management could have ever known because i wasn't there enough when the owners or studio manager was there--because i was off making a living... granted--i could have broken up with my girlfriend and found a cheaper place to live in a much less savory neighborhood and scraped by and started missing my credit card payments and eating ramen noodles twice a day and ketchup soup for dinner, but i was not willing to make that sacrafice. and if i had--i might at this point (2 years later) be making $20,000 a year as an assistant and freelancer working 50+ hours per week.
it ended up working out for me anyway, as I was lucky enough to hook up with a paying freelance gig at a small studio that's part of a CD duplication company and they eventually hired me full-time and when i have no sessions i duplicate CDs... i make a somewhat decent wage, and when i work in the studio more, i get paid more. things are picking up (i actually have worked 32 hours in the studio already in november!!)--it could be worse.
the most important things i learned as an intern are:
1) shut the fuck up when it comes to the actual engineering of a session. the engineer is almost definitely at least as knowledgeable as you are in just about every aspect of his job. when you open your mouth about some engineering shit you are doing nothing but undermining the engineer's relationship with his/her client. you're not going to impress someone into hiring you because you can question the engineer's decisions. just shut up and learn. if you have to learn by watching someone fuck up, so be it. (JM if you're reading thank you for that lesson and for not killing me)
2) sort of related to 1)... engineering in a commercial studio, big or small, is only 10% engineering, and 90% psychology. of course there is a vast amount of technical information, and you'd better know 100% of what's going on in that department. but running a session, making your client feel comfortable, gaining someone's trust when they may have just met you 10 minutes before the session and are about to spend hundreds or maybe thousands of dollars... you have to know how to keep things moving and how to get the most out of the musicians. if people are uncomfortable and they don't like or trust you, it's not going to matter if you are the best engineer ever--you are not going to get anyone coming back to work with you if you didn't earn their trust within 10 minutes...
best of luck, be persistant, be available, be open-minded...
but the money thing is going to be a huge issue if you want to do this for a living and you're trying to pay rent in a big city. you will not make any money interning. when you start to make money, it will not be a lot. even $10 per hour is not going to get you very far in NYC...
i would suggest interning at some place where you'd like to work--and someplace that has enough business to be able to actually hire you some day. because you're right--when you start at someplace new, unless you've got a shitload of records under your belt and a pool of clients who will only record with you--you're going to start as an intern. unless you are like the soldering master in which case you may be able to get a job as a tech.
now the part you didn't ask for, just because it's 5:30 am and i still can't sleep:
the studio i interned at after recording school would have been the perfect place to work, and they really liked me there, but i simply could not afford to be there more than one or two nights a week, which made it impossible for them to promote me, because I just wasn't there enough, because i had to pay the rent. it didn't matter that i graduated at the top of my class or that i knew my shit from a technical standpoint--they wanted someone who they could trust with their clients and while i do happen to be good in that area as well, that's not something the studio management could have ever known because i wasn't there enough when the owners or studio manager was there--because i was off making a living... granted--i could have broken up with my girlfriend and found a cheaper place to live in a much less savory neighborhood and scraped by and started missing my credit card payments and eating ramen noodles twice a day and ketchup soup for dinner, but i was not willing to make that sacrafice. and if i had--i might at this point (2 years later) be making $20,000 a year as an assistant and freelancer working 50+ hours per week.
it ended up working out for me anyway, as I was lucky enough to hook up with a paying freelance gig at a small studio that's part of a CD duplication company and they eventually hired me full-time and when i have no sessions i duplicate CDs... i make a somewhat decent wage, and when i work in the studio more, i get paid more. things are picking up (i actually have worked 32 hours in the studio already in november!!)--it could be worse.
the most important things i learned as an intern are:
1) shut the fuck up when it comes to the actual engineering of a session. the engineer is almost definitely at least as knowledgeable as you are in just about every aspect of his job. when you open your mouth about some engineering shit you are doing nothing but undermining the engineer's relationship with his/her client. you're not going to impress someone into hiring you because you can question the engineer's decisions. just shut up and learn. if you have to learn by watching someone fuck up, so be it. (JM if you're reading thank you for that lesson and for not killing me)
2) sort of related to 1)... engineering in a commercial studio, big or small, is only 10% engineering, and 90% psychology. of course there is a vast amount of technical information, and you'd better know 100% of what's going on in that department. but running a session, making your client feel comfortable, gaining someone's trust when they may have just met you 10 minutes before the session and are about to spend hundreds or maybe thousands of dollars... you have to know how to keep things moving and how to get the most out of the musicians. if people are uncomfortable and they don't like or trust you, it's not going to matter if you are the best engineer ever--you are not going to get anyone coming back to work with you if you didn't earn their trust within 10 minutes...
best of luck, be persistant, be available, be open-minded...
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colinandrew12
- gettin' sounds
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Re: Internship Questions
well....first of all....about the money thing....you've got to just take one for the team....basically, the internship should take roughly the same number of hours per week as your classes and homework combined.....therefore, whatever part time job you're doing...you should still be able to do.....it's kind of fucked up the way you have to pay tuition to work for free at an internship....however, if done correctly, it can be the most valuable class you pay for in all of college.....
....i've been in the same place as you, and here's my advice: if you know someone, try interning with them personally.....this may be a little hard to accomplish but that's what i did...
....i didn't want to be an intern at any of the studios around here because i had no desire to make coffee or change lightbulbs.....so i had an old friend that's one of the best recording/live sound guys around town....i gave him a call asking him if i should get an internship at one of the studios and he said "why don't you talk your school into letting you do it with me?"
so that's what i did....i did it with him personally....i basically shadowed him for an entire summer. during the day we were in the studio or in the wood shop building equipment racks or sometimes we'd even have a "wiring" day where he taught me how to solder and wire everything, even down to electrical wiring to put power in my racks and such....then at night, we were at a local club where he is the house engineer. all in all, it worked out great. i feel like i came out of it knowing 1000% more than anyone that works as a studio's intern or anyone who went to audio school (i got my degree in music business and didn't go to school for recording or sound)......i'm a strong believer that this is the best way to go....but you have to know someone who is willing to take you on.....it worked great in this situation because not only did i get a one on one teacher at all times, but he got someone to do the "dirty" work of his jobs....i would wire the stage at the club, i would wire the studio and get all the mics set-up, and for me just learning, these things were great oppurtunities. many "studio interns" don't ever get to touch a microphone or plug the mic cable into the panel, then go patch the mic input to the preamps, then patch the pre-amps to the tape-ins with any inserts involved....
like i said, i know this isn't the easiest thing for everyone to make happen, but if there's any way that you can work it out, i would HIGHLY suggest it.
good luck.
....i've been in the same place as you, and here's my advice: if you know someone, try interning with them personally.....this may be a little hard to accomplish but that's what i did...
....i didn't want to be an intern at any of the studios around here because i had no desire to make coffee or change lightbulbs.....so i had an old friend that's one of the best recording/live sound guys around town....i gave him a call asking him if i should get an internship at one of the studios and he said "why don't you talk your school into letting you do it with me?"
so that's what i did....i did it with him personally....i basically shadowed him for an entire summer. during the day we were in the studio or in the wood shop building equipment racks or sometimes we'd even have a "wiring" day where he taught me how to solder and wire everything, even down to electrical wiring to put power in my racks and such....then at night, we were at a local club where he is the house engineer. all in all, it worked out great. i feel like i came out of it knowing 1000% more than anyone that works as a studio's intern or anyone who went to audio school (i got my degree in music business and didn't go to school for recording or sound)......i'm a strong believer that this is the best way to go....but you have to know someone who is willing to take you on.....it worked great in this situation because not only did i get a one on one teacher at all times, but he got someone to do the "dirty" work of his jobs....i would wire the stage at the club, i would wire the studio and get all the mics set-up, and for me just learning, these things were great oppurtunities. many "studio interns" don't ever get to touch a microphone or plug the mic cable into the panel, then go patch the mic input to the preamps, then patch the pre-amps to the tape-ins with any inserts involved....
like i said, i know this isn't the easiest thing for everyone to make happen, but if there's any way that you can work it out, i would HIGHLY suggest it.
good luck.
...just remember, when doing live sound: you can't polish a turd....
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matt250321
- pluggin' in mics
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:57 pm
- Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: Internship Questions
Thanks everyone for your answers... I have a feeling that my choice for where I intern is very important, regardless of whether I want to work at that particular studio or not after graduation. Moon Unit... stripping is always part of my backup plan...Teaboy, do you still work at the Hit Factory? If so, do you know Mike McCoy? He graduated from the program at my school and seems to be doing pretty well as a chief engineer there. I met him a few weeks ago when he came to a recording conference at my school. Cool guy. Andy, it seems like a mid-level studio is the place to go for an internship like you did. Does anyone know of any such studios in or around the Philadelphia area? Or even the NYC area? Like I said before, I know someone who has a nice rent controlled apartment in the middle of the city that they dont even live in anymore. It's so cheap they will probably never get rid of it and I might be able to rent it from them for close to nothing. So a NYC internship might not break my bank. Thanks again everyone. Keep the suggestions coming. I need all the help I can get. Also feel free to send me money. Or give me a job, that would be good too.
"We are emotional salesmen" -Shelly Yakus
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i am monster face
- buyin' gear
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- Location: Omaha
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Re: Internship Questions
I see you're from Philadelphia. I used to live near Philadelphia before I came out here for school. I know of a few cool studios in the Lancaster area that have pretty nice people there. I interned there, and then also interned out here a rather large and nice studio. Both places I made coffee, ran errands, cleaned floors and walls, and took out the trash. Of course, after a while I was allowed to run and clean the studer, help setup the RCA's, and even got to sing backup on a few songs. It was fun. I am now mentioned in the "thanks" sections of two nationally released cds on the Saddle Creek and Sub Pop labels. Shows what interning does for you.
I learned a whole lot - everyone from the musicians to the engineers were learning experiences. I was able to understand production process, different approaches to microphone placement, and different ways to production. I also made a lot of friends and am now in a band that is recording for a label and touring this summer. So, it's been fun.
I recommend it to everyone.
Ian (the intern)
I learned a whole lot - everyone from the musicians to the engineers were learning experiences. I was able to understand production process, different approaches to microphone placement, and different ways to production. I also made a lot of friends and am now in a band that is recording for a label and touring this summer. So, it's been fun.
I recommend it to everyone.
Ian (the intern)
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Family Hoof
- buyin' a studio
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Re: Internship Questions
If you're lucky enough to find one of those gems then the studio internship should be a cinch. It seems both are a dying breed in this citymatt250321 wrote:Like I said before, I know someone who has a nice rent controlled apartment in the middle of the city that they dont even live in anymore. It's so cheap they will probably never get rid of it and I might be able to rent it from them for close to nothing.
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Professor
- ghost haunting audio students
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- Location: I have arrived... but where the hell am I?
Re: Internship Questions
I spent a summer in Media about 9 years ago, house-sitting for a former teacher. I liked the Rib-It, which I imagine is still there, though I seem to recall that the little Italian place that made fresh ravioli was gone the last time I drove through town.
On the subject of marrying into money, the trick is to find a mom that wanted to be a singer and is trying to live vicariously through her daughter - then you're truly in. Aim for the folks around the Swarthmore area.
But since your real question is about internships, let's talk about that.
First up, I'd like to get something out that should be repeated in every school around the nation every day of the week:
Internships must be compensated in some way, either by pay or through college credit.
"Hiring" an intern and having them work for no pay or other compensation is called "slavery" and is a violation of several rather obvious federal laws.
This pisses me off to no end because it is part of the reason why there are no jobs out there for engineers. All the small and mid-level studios figure they can get away with bringing on the eager "interns" from the local recording schools and putting them to the shit work, and even advanced work around the studio. They don't register them through their federal tax ID, they don't have them working in OSHA safe environments, and they rarely do the proper legal paperwork to have them earn credits through their school. Then they work the kids to the bone, keep dangling the carrot of an 'assistant job' in front of them, and when the kid finally says, "no more work without pay" they tell them the internship is over and bring in the next victim.
It's illegal, immoral, and it just ain't cool
There. I needed to get that off my chest.
I have two possible recommendations to you for interning.
1 - For this summer, live at home because you are so close to Philly and the rent is cheaper than even the best rent control in Manhattan. Contact lots of places in the Philly area and go check them out during the spring semester. Just pick up the phone book and start calling. I'm sure you want to work in a rock recording studio, so start there, but don't take an internship if they won't get the proper paperwork done with your school for you to receive credit, or if they won't be paying at least minimum wage. Also, aim for the largest places you can find, as they will be the most likely to work on the level. Don't work in some seedy little basement or one-room "facility" in a warehouse in G-Town. Have some respect for yourself by choosing an environment that suits your vision of yourself in your future career.
I would highly, highly, highly recommend getting in touch with the guys that do work for the orchestra or other 'classical' groups. I know the Orchestra will be in Saratoga Springs for the summer, but you could get in to see the guy that records their concerts downtown before they leave, and maybe sit in on a session. You might be able to intern at a venue like that instead of a studio. Contact the folks at the theater companies, theater spaces, concert halls, etc. and find out what you can do. These guys don't often get contacted because everyone always thinks 'rock & roll' studios, but these guys are more into the technology & technique of their craft, and will likely be much more open to teaching you one-on-one as you go, and handing you the reigns on occasion. You also stand a better chance of getting your work on the air if you do some ProTools editing for an NPR broadcast than if you paint bathrooms or chop vegetables at a big studio.
That's this summer, coming up in six months, so get on the phone.
2 - Next summer (2006). Start planning from now to live in the cheap place in NYC and apply to work at the Hit Factory. This isn't an "internship" or any kind of phony slave labor, it is an actual job. The pay may be minimum wage, but if you can live for cheap/free, then it's all you'll need. The important thing is that you need to ba able to spend every waking hour at the studio working on everything that you can. Yes, they'll have you making coffee, and chopping vegetables, but if you're serious and dilligent you'll soon rise to the top and find your way to the more educational jobs. Don't expect to work there as an intern, then a 2nd, then a 1st engineer, because that doesn't happen anymore. All the 1st engineers are major freelancers, and the studio only provides assistants. But you can connect, make contacts, learn the trade and maybe get your name on an album cover or two - even if it's just inn the thank you section.
3 - (I know I said just two) Remember that there are other areas of this industry than rock and roll recording studios. Look into the wide world of broadcast and consider interning at a radio or television studio - there are lots of those in Philadelphia. Consider working in a non-technical environment like at a record label office, or a concert & promotions company. Consider working in live sound for concert, theater productions, and maybe even amusement parks (Dorney Park, Great Adventure, etc.). Don't get so wrapped up in the idea of being in a studio that you miss some really great opportunites. Any work experience will look good on a r?sum?, and any work experience will land you in the same position of cleaning floors and walls if you try to "work your way up" through one of the cheap studios that thinks interns are free labor and is ready with the 'we don't make enough money or have enough business' sob story every time you ask to be paid for what your time, effort and talent is worth.
I hope I didn't paint this as too ugly of a picture. Really, I don't think it is, and I'm almost envious of all the possibilities that are out there for you. Just realize that there's more to it than whoring yourself, and you might even find that it's really fun to record classical concerts or create sound effects for plays, or run live sound for musical theater, or hoist a boom mic on a TV shoot, or screen callers on a radio show, or arrange ad campaigns for a record label, or whatever else you might find out there.
Oh, and when you get the internship, all those other rules about how to stay quiet, behave, show respect, and ask questions to learn not to contradict would naturally apply.
-Jeremy
PS, you might want to let your folks read all of these responses - it may help put it into perspective for them too.
On the subject of marrying into money, the trick is to find a mom that wanted to be a singer and is trying to live vicariously through her daughter - then you're truly in. Aim for the folks around the Swarthmore area.
But since your real question is about internships, let's talk about that.
First up, I'd like to get something out that should be repeated in every school around the nation every day of the week:
Internships must be compensated in some way, either by pay or through college credit.
"Hiring" an intern and having them work for no pay or other compensation is called "slavery" and is a violation of several rather obvious federal laws.
This pisses me off to no end because it is part of the reason why there are no jobs out there for engineers. All the small and mid-level studios figure they can get away with bringing on the eager "interns" from the local recording schools and putting them to the shit work, and even advanced work around the studio. They don't register them through their federal tax ID, they don't have them working in OSHA safe environments, and they rarely do the proper legal paperwork to have them earn credits through their school. Then they work the kids to the bone, keep dangling the carrot of an 'assistant job' in front of them, and when the kid finally says, "no more work without pay" they tell them the internship is over and bring in the next victim.
It's illegal, immoral, and it just ain't cool
There. I needed to get that off my chest.
I have two possible recommendations to you for interning.
1 - For this summer, live at home because you are so close to Philly and the rent is cheaper than even the best rent control in Manhattan. Contact lots of places in the Philly area and go check them out during the spring semester. Just pick up the phone book and start calling. I'm sure you want to work in a rock recording studio, so start there, but don't take an internship if they won't get the proper paperwork done with your school for you to receive credit, or if they won't be paying at least minimum wage. Also, aim for the largest places you can find, as they will be the most likely to work on the level. Don't work in some seedy little basement or one-room "facility" in a warehouse in G-Town. Have some respect for yourself by choosing an environment that suits your vision of yourself in your future career.
I would highly, highly, highly recommend getting in touch with the guys that do work for the orchestra or other 'classical' groups. I know the Orchestra will be in Saratoga Springs for the summer, but you could get in to see the guy that records their concerts downtown before they leave, and maybe sit in on a session. You might be able to intern at a venue like that instead of a studio. Contact the folks at the theater companies, theater spaces, concert halls, etc. and find out what you can do. These guys don't often get contacted because everyone always thinks 'rock & roll' studios, but these guys are more into the technology & technique of their craft, and will likely be much more open to teaching you one-on-one as you go, and handing you the reigns on occasion. You also stand a better chance of getting your work on the air if you do some ProTools editing for an NPR broadcast than if you paint bathrooms or chop vegetables at a big studio.
That's this summer, coming up in six months, so get on the phone.
2 - Next summer (2006). Start planning from now to live in the cheap place in NYC and apply to work at the Hit Factory. This isn't an "internship" or any kind of phony slave labor, it is an actual job. The pay may be minimum wage, but if you can live for cheap/free, then it's all you'll need. The important thing is that you need to ba able to spend every waking hour at the studio working on everything that you can. Yes, they'll have you making coffee, and chopping vegetables, but if you're serious and dilligent you'll soon rise to the top and find your way to the more educational jobs. Don't expect to work there as an intern, then a 2nd, then a 1st engineer, because that doesn't happen anymore. All the 1st engineers are major freelancers, and the studio only provides assistants. But you can connect, make contacts, learn the trade and maybe get your name on an album cover or two - even if it's just inn the thank you section.
3 - (I know I said just two) Remember that there are other areas of this industry than rock and roll recording studios. Look into the wide world of broadcast and consider interning at a radio or television studio - there are lots of those in Philadelphia. Consider working in a non-technical environment like at a record label office, or a concert & promotions company. Consider working in live sound for concert, theater productions, and maybe even amusement parks (Dorney Park, Great Adventure, etc.). Don't get so wrapped up in the idea of being in a studio that you miss some really great opportunites. Any work experience will look good on a r?sum?, and any work experience will land you in the same position of cleaning floors and walls if you try to "work your way up" through one of the cheap studios that thinks interns are free labor and is ready with the 'we don't make enough money or have enough business' sob story every time you ask to be paid for what your time, effort and talent is worth.
I hope I didn't paint this as too ugly of a picture. Really, I don't think it is, and I'm almost envious of all the possibilities that are out there for you. Just realize that there's more to it than whoring yourself, and you might even find that it's really fun to record classical concerts or create sound effects for plays, or run live sound for musical theater, or hoist a boom mic on a TV shoot, or screen callers on a radio show, or arrange ad campaigns for a record label, or whatever else you might find out there.
Oh, and when you get the internship, all those other rules about how to stay quiet, behave, show respect, and ask questions to learn not to contradict would naturally apply.
-Jeremy
PS, you might want to let your folks read all of these responses - it may help put it into perspective for them too.
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cgarges
- zen recordist
- Posts: 10890
- Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2003 1:26 am
- Location: Charlotte, NC
- Contact:
Re: Internship Questions
Jeremy, while I see your point, that's just plain wrong.Professor wrote:"Hiring" an intern and having them work for no pay or other compensation is called "slavery" and is a violation of several rather obvious federal laws.
There are lots of people willing to take non-paid internships. I can think of two times in my life where I was more than happy to be one of them. "Internship" by definition does not mean paid status and has more in common with volunteering at your local public radio station taking phone calls during pledge drives than being owned by another person and forced to work. That's slavery.
While I'm no lawyer, I find it hard to believe that someone volunteering to help out in a professional environment of their choice is illegal.Professor wrote:This pisses me off to no end because it is part of the reason why there are no jobs out there for engineers. All the small and mid-level studios figure they can get away with bringing on the eager "interns" from the local recording schools and putting them to the shit work, and even advanced work around the studio. They don't register them through their federal tax ID, they don't have them working in OSHA safe environments, and they rarely do the proper legal paperwork to have them earn credits through their school. Then they work the kids to the bone, keep dangling the carrot of an 'assistant job' in front of them, and when the kid finally says, "no more work without pay" they tell them the internship is over and bring in the next victim.
It's illegal, immoral, and it just ain't cool
I've never been in ANY professional studio environment where interns were "worked to the bone." In fact, it's been quite the opposite. Most interns are given the opportunity to work as much or as little as they want. The ones who put forth the most unsolicited effort without getting in the way or breaking things are the ones who are offered the paying nighttime gigs that the staff guys don't want to do. In one particular studio around here, interns are allowed as much free studio time as they want during the duration of their stay as an intern, assuming they've taken the initiative to learn the equipment. And at this same studio, I have seen FOUR interns offered a paid staff position over the last three years.
The last staff job I had came about as a result of my hanging out at the studio without getting paid. The studio where I worked closed down and instead of going out and looking for a day job, I went and hung out at this other studio every day. They had a couple sessions come up where they wanted to hire me to play percussion. Then, a client of mine from the previous studio wanted to hire me to do a session at this other place. When it became apaernt that I knew what was going on, they decided to hire me. I never for once considered was I was doing a burden at all and I'm grateful for the opportunity.
Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC
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rythmicillusion
- audio school graduate
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:25 pm
- Location: Boston and Lowell MA
- Contact:
Re: Internship Questions
Teaboy-
Here is some experience from an internship and some advice...
I am starting at Berklee in the spring and have been interning at a studio in downtown Boston for a couple months now (Waltz Audio). It is unpaid, but the enviornment is great. It is a medium-large place...two control rooms, two live rooms, a few iso rooms, an office where they also do duplication/promo materials, some lesson rooms in the back, a music tech room for people working on beats for hip/hop songs, etc. I am one of about 15 interns in addition to 3 fulltime producer/engineers and 3 more freelancers. I am ususally working as the only intern or with one other guy while 2-4 of the guys are doing recording or working on various stuff around the place. I run errands for them and do various "gopher" tasks, but they allow me to sit in on sessions to watch them work, and im always learning little tips and tricks and real world advice. At the least during my 4-6 hour shifts, im chatting and hanging out with the owner and head engineers at least for an hour, but usually more around 2 hours.
I got the internship after a really brief interview and tour with the owner. I could tell from the start that the guy really knows his stuff, but is quite modest and damn funny, not to mention super laid back and one of the easiest guys to talk to I've ever met. I think the biggest suggestion I can make is to find a place that you feel comfortable in immediatly in terms of the enviornment and people. If your getting bad vibes after a week or two, its time to move on and find somewhere else. After all, it boils down to free proffesional service and reference in exchange for your time and help...if the experience part is less than par, get out immediatly and find someplace else.
In terms of the money situtation....an internship or two is almost required if you want to move onto "bigger" things, whatever that may be. It sucks to not get paid to work for working, but how much $$$ did you PAY for the college experience? Simply think of it as an extension of your education, and it makes more sense(and eventually cents!!). One of the great things about interning (I've done a few in various industrys) is that if everything does click, you know that you have made friends out of the people you work with, it can directly lead to something paying. For example, their is one intern at my studio that is also listed as an engineer. They use him if no one can do that session or if someone cancels last minute. He impressed the staff and is respected, and is now making a little $$$ each work as a reward. One of the head engineers interned there for a while and eventually came to a deal with the owner, brininging in his own clients. He eventually became so busy that he had no more time to intern...
My suggestion for work would definetly be along the lines of bartending or waiting tables...its not the greatest job, but the tips you earn from even 4 or 5 shifts a week at a decent resturaunt is enough to live comfortably on, even to save some $$$ with. Start interning 3 times a week while your working and see how that feels. If you can add a day or two at the studio awesome, and im sure they will understand if you can't work more because you have bills to pay. I only work once a week at my studio, more if I can, that one of the greatest things about it...the flexibility it allows.
Best of luck to you and I hope this helped you out a little bit.
Here is some experience from an internship and some advice...
I am starting at Berklee in the spring and have been interning at a studio in downtown Boston for a couple months now (Waltz Audio). It is unpaid, but the enviornment is great. It is a medium-large place...two control rooms, two live rooms, a few iso rooms, an office where they also do duplication/promo materials, some lesson rooms in the back, a music tech room for people working on beats for hip/hop songs, etc. I am one of about 15 interns in addition to 3 fulltime producer/engineers and 3 more freelancers. I am ususally working as the only intern or with one other guy while 2-4 of the guys are doing recording or working on various stuff around the place. I run errands for them and do various "gopher" tasks, but they allow me to sit in on sessions to watch them work, and im always learning little tips and tricks and real world advice. At the least during my 4-6 hour shifts, im chatting and hanging out with the owner and head engineers at least for an hour, but usually more around 2 hours.
I got the internship after a really brief interview and tour with the owner. I could tell from the start that the guy really knows his stuff, but is quite modest and damn funny, not to mention super laid back and one of the easiest guys to talk to I've ever met. I think the biggest suggestion I can make is to find a place that you feel comfortable in immediatly in terms of the enviornment and people. If your getting bad vibes after a week or two, its time to move on and find somewhere else. After all, it boils down to free proffesional service and reference in exchange for your time and help...if the experience part is less than par, get out immediatly and find someplace else.
In terms of the money situtation....an internship or two is almost required if you want to move onto "bigger" things, whatever that may be. It sucks to not get paid to work for working, but how much $$$ did you PAY for the college experience? Simply think of it as an extension of your education, and it makes more sense(and eventually cents!!). One of the great things about interning (I've done a few in various industrys) is that if everything does click, you know that you have made friends out of the people you work with, it can directly lead to something paying. For example, their is one intern at my studio that is also listed as an engineer. They use him if no one can do that session or if someone cancels last minute. He impressed the staff and is respected, and is now making a little $$$ each work as a reward. One of the head engineers interned there for a while and eventually came to a deal with the owner, brininging in his own clients. He eventually became so busy that he had no more time to intern...
My suggestion for work would definetly be along the lines of bartending or waiting tables...its not the greatest job, but the tips you earn from even 4 or 5 shifts a week at a decent resturaunt is enough to live comfortably on, even to save some $$$ with. Start interning 3 times a week while your working and see how that feels. If you can add a day or two at the studio awesome, and im sure they will understand if you can't work more because you have bills to pay. I only work once a week at my studio, more if I can, that one of the greatest things about it...the flexibility it allows.
Best of luck to you and I hope this helped you out a little bit.
-
Professor
- ghost haunting audio students
- Posts: 3307
- Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 2:11 pm
- Location: I have arrived... but where the hell am I?
Re: Internship Questions
Chris,
I should have clarified there, sorry.
Yes, there are lots of guys out there who are willing to do the work for free and consider it a great opportunity. It's not illegal for the person who is volunteering for the work, but it is illegal for the studio to have non-paid labor.
Even if the working conditions are comfy, cosy, and the staff are never demanding, they are legally obliged to compensate for your time.
Legally it is a matter for the Dep't of Labor and for the IRS. If the person is providing a free service to the studio, then the studio is receiving "income" for which they have to compute a fair market value and claim the gift on their taxes. If they provide a return compensation in the form of either money, college credit, individualized training, or the free studio time you mentioned, then they still have to show fair market value for the interns services, fair market value for their compensation, and file it all on their taxes.
This isn't me pulling it out of my ass, this is the Eagle, and the surest way to kill your business is to mess with the Eagle.
Now if a studio were smart, they could claim that their personalized instruction was worth $50 an hour and that each intern received 10 hours per week (+500 in the interns favor). If the intern's services were valued at $10 an hour, and he worked 50 hours in a week it would mean -500 back to the studio. The result is a wash.
But if the studio were really really smart, they would claim that employee's value at $5 an hour and claim a net loss of $250 a week, so they would have a tax deductible write-off of $13,000 per year, per intern. Of course, the Eagle is going to want to see documentation on this, and that's where the paperwork with the school is important.
The fact is that commercial businesses cannot take volunteer work forces like public radio or your local symphony. Those places can take volunteers because they are registered as Non-Profit or Not-for-Profit corporations, under the 501c3 category. It takes lots of paper work and legal documentation to become a 501c3, and even they must account for their volunteer staff.
And yes, I know all too well that the students who willingly jump into these internships perpetuate the problem as much as the studios. I know that this isn't going to stop any time soon. And I've no doubt that there are guys like you who are able to turn interships into meaningful and legitimate employment. Hanging around the studio alot while you are unemployed is perfectly reasonable, but the minute you start wrapping cables and stacking mic stands, and sweeping floors, then you're an employee.
Our industry is no different from any other as the Eagle is concerned. Sure there are guys who are willing to pick apples off the trees here in Washington for $4 an hour, but the federal government put the minimum wage at $5.25 an hour. And every guy that's willing to do the job for cheap or free is taking a job away from someone else.
Believe, I'm no great fan of minimum wage as I believe that fair market value should determine wages. Right now, however, student engineers have flooded the market of studio assistantships and dropped the fair market wage down to ZERO dollars. If Matt feels that is what he is worth, than so be it. If he decides he's worth more than free labor, then someone else will most likely take that "internship" instead of him. Yes, the downside risk to his investment decision is that he might miss out on an opportunity to land a part time minimum wage job three months later. The upside potential is that he might find some resource other than the oversaturated studio market where he can learn a skill, perfect a talent, or earn a credit that will make him more valuable when he is done with school.
Yes there are studios that still hire assistants. Hit Factory is a great example. Sure, they only pay minimum wage, but at least they do it by the book, and the opportunities are real. Sure there exceptions, but you have to admit that lots of small-time guys are more than happy to take advantage of the situation and exploit the pool of willing free-labor.
There's a saying that people enjoy using when discouraging pre-marital sex:
Why buy the cow when the milk is free?
Similarly here, why hire an assistant when the interns are free?
If the studio can't pay an assistant engineer for his/her time, then they should get more business or charge higher rates. If they can't support higher rates because they are trying to undercut the 'big studio' in town, then they need to cut their costs, or just not use assistants at all. If they can't raise their rates or cut their costs, then they could fold their business and allow the larger studio to grow stronger.
I know that statement is going to piss off a lot of the small project studio guys, but face it, this is a cut-throat business and every time someone smaller tries to take a bite out of the bigger guy, the whole chain is affected. Right now you might be the littlest guy in town, but when someone starts undercutting you and you start losing gigs, it will start to hurt.
And when we're talking about employees and assistants, there are legitimate ways to do it and still get the free labor. I already listed some. I'm not trying to discourage the internships, but I want to see the schools and the students force the studios to be more responsible. Because if the Eagle catches sight of this little racket, you can be damn sure that you'll see a lot of studios go under really fast - and contrary to what it may seem, I don't want that to happen. I want everyone to thrive and psoper in this business.
-Jeremy
I should have clarified there, sorry.
Yes, there are lots of guys out there who are willing to do the work for free and consider it a great opportunity. It's not illegal for the person who is volunteering for the work, but it is illegal for the studio to have non-paid labor.
Even if the working conditions are comfy, cosy, and the staff are never demanding, they are legally obliged to compensate for your time.
Legally it is a matter for the Dep't of Labor and for the IRS. If the person is providing a free service to the studio, then the studio is receiving "income" for which they have to compute a fair market value and claim the gift on their taxes. If they provide a return compensation in the form of either money, college credit, individualized training, or the free studio time you mentioned, then they still have to show fair market value for the interns services, fair market value for their compensation, and file it all on their taxes.
This isn't me pulling it out of my ass, this is the Eagle, and the surest way to kill your business is to mess with the Eagle.
Now if a studio were smart, they could claim that their personalized instruction was worth $50 an hour and that each intern received 10 hours per week (+500 in the interns favor). If the intern's services were valued at $10 an hour, and he worked 50 hours in a week it would mean -500 back to the studio. The result is a wash.
But if the studio were really really smart, they would claim that employee's value at $5 an hour and claim a net loss of $250 a week, so they would have a tax deductible write-off of $13,000 per year, per intern. Of course, the Eagle is going to want to see documentation on this, and that's where the paperwork with the school is important.
The fact is that commercial businesses cannot take volunteer work forces like public radio or your local symphony. Those places can take volunteers because they are registered as Non-Profit or Not-for-Profit corporations, under the 501c3 category. It takes lots of paper work and legal documentation to become a 501c3, and even they must account for their volunteer staff.
And yes, I know all too well that the students who willingly jump into these internships perpetuate the problem as much as the studios. I know that this isn't going to stop any time soon. And I've no doubt that there are guys like you who are able to turn interships into meaningful and legitimate employment. Hanging around the studio alot while you are unemployed is perfectly reasonable, but the minute you start wrapping cables and stacking mic stands, and sweeping floors, then you're an employee.
Our industry is no different from any other as the Eagle is concerned. Sure there are guys who are willing to pick apples off the trees here in Washington for $4 an hour, but the federal government put the minimum wage at $5.25 an hour. And every guy that's willing to do the job for cheap or free is taking a job away from someone else.
Believe, I'm no great fan of minimum wage as I believe that fair market value should determine wages. Right now, however, student engineers have flooded the market of studio assistantships and dropped the fair market wage down to ZERO dollars. If Matt feels that is what he is worth, than so be it. If he decides he's worth more than free labor, then someone else will most likely take that "internship" instead of him. Yes, the downside risk to his investment decision is that he might miss out on an opportunity to land a part time minimum wage job three months later. The upside potential is that he might find some resource other than the oversaturated studio market where he can learn a skill, perfect a talent, or earn a credit that will make him more valuable when he is done with school.
Yes there are studios that still hire assistants. Hit Factory is a great example. Sure, they only pay minimum wage, but at least they do it by the book, and the opportunities are real. Sure there exceptions, but you have to admit that lots of small-time guys are more than happy to take advantage of the situation and exploit the pool of willing free-labor.
There's a saying that people enjoy using when discouraging pre-marital sex:
Why buy the cow when the milk is free?
Similarly here, why hire an assistant when the interns are free?
If the studio can't pay an assistant engineer for his/her time, then they should get more business or charge higher rates. If they can't support higher rates because they are trying to undercut the 'big studio' in town, then they need to cut their costs, or just not use assistants at all. If they can't raise their rates or cut their costs, then they could fold their business and allow the larger studio to grow stronger.
I know that statement is going to piss off a lot of the small project studio guys, but face it, this is a cut-throat business and every time someone smaller tries to take a bite out of the bigger guy, the whole chain is affected. Right now you might be the littlest guy in town, but when someone starts undercutting you and you start losing gigs, it will start to hurt.
And when we're talking about employees and assistants, there are legitimate ways to do it and still get the free labor. I already listed some. I'm not trying to discourage the internships, but I want to see the schools and the students force the studios to be more responsible. Because if the Eagle catches sight of this little racket, you can be damn sure that you'll see a lot of studios go under really fast - and contrary to what it may seem, I don't want that to happen. I want everyone to thrive and psoper in this business.
-Jeremy
-
terencepalmer
- audio school graduate
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 10:40 pm
Re: Internship Questions
I work at what is a large studio in my area, but would be a small studio by NYC standards. There are times when we get more calls from people wanting to intern/assist than from clients wanting to pay to work. Having a hired assistant is one thing, but hiring someone off the street, fresh out of school or even still in school is hardly an option. Not everyone can be trusted with a Neve, a 2-inch machine or a clients project on ProTools or whatever. I'm yet to see an intern that I would trust working on my project. For the most part, hiring an assistant would be giving money to someone for watching me work. There is a big difference between learning how to record at a school and getting actual hands on experience. I spent a year not getting paid, or getting an occasional check when it was deemed that I warranted it. While it seems like simply wrapping cables or putting away mics or whatever, in reality it is getting your hands on equipment and a close up view at things you might otherwise be reading about in a magazine.
Suggesting that a studio should simply "get more business or raise their rates" is kind of a joke. Raising rates generally will result in less clients for one thing. And in my experience, clients decide to work with me or at my studio, not the other way around. I can easily decide how not busy I'm going to be, but it's not so easy to decide to be busier.
"Certain interns and trainees are not considered employees if they work for their own advantage on the premises of another, without any express or implied compensation agreement. Often, the arrangement is one in which a student intern earns high school or college credit in exchange for participating in a training program conducted by the employer. WH Publication 1297, issued by the U.S. Department of Labor, provides the following tests:
CRITERIA FOR TRAINEES
When all of the following criteria apply, trainees or students are not employees within the meaning of wage and hour laws:
1. The training, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to that which would be given in a vocational school;
2. The training is for the benefit of the trainees or students;
3. The trainees or students do not displace regular employees, but work under their close supervision;
4. The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the trainees or students; and on occasion his operations may actually be impeded;
5. The trainees or students are not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the training period; and
6. The employer and the trainees or students understand that the trainees or students are not entitled to wages for the time spent in training."
Suggesting that a studio should simply "get more business or raise their rates" is kind of a joke. Raising rates generally will result in less clients for one thing. And in my experience, clients decide to work with me or at my studio, not the other way around. I can easily decide how not busy I'm going to be, but it's not so easy to decide to be busier.
"Certain interns and trainees are not considered employees if they work for their own advantage on the premises of another, without any express or implied compensation agreement. Often, the arrangement is one in which a student intern earns high school or college credit in exchange for participating in a training program conducted by the employer. WH Publication 1297, issued by the U.S. Department of Labor, provides the following tests:
CRITERIA FOR TRAINEES
When all of the following criteria apply, trainees or students are not employees within the meaning of wage and hour laws:
1. The training, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to that which would be given in a vocational school;
2. The training is for the benefit of the trainees or students;
3. The trainees or students do not displace regular employees, but work under their close supervision;
4. The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the trainees or students; and on occasion his operations may actually be impeded;
5. The trainees or students are not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the training period; and
6. The employer and the trainees or students understand that the trainees or students are not entitled to wages for the time spent in training."
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