Mixing with or without the band

[lsn110]

I know the answer is going to be "depends on the situation", but I was curious as to whether folks like to mix with or without the band in the room. We're in the process of doing our first mix project without the band present and we're realizing that because of our setup (lots of outboard) recall is an issue. We're taking the best notes we can, but now we're wondering if it just makes sense to call the band (ie read band leader) in on the mixing. Anyhow, how do y'all deal with it...just curious.

I guess this is what they call second guessing.

[@?,*???&?]

If you've got a great assistant engineer who pays attention to the mix and the notes, you might not be that bad off. Band input, depending on experience, can be a good thing. Let me say that if it's their first recordng or they are early in their career they'll probably not be listening to the songs, but rather to their individual instruments only and have no clue how it fits together as a whole. I've had way too many band members be more concerned how loud their tracks are in the mix than anything else. The Producer/Engineer should have a good sense of what makes the song tick. The lead singer may have good input on that as well. The main writer would be best to have in on the mix, but only after you have the mix close. Every major label record I've been involved with, will result in the band coming down about an hour before the mix is done and provide comments from that point. A & R people will never be available so it's really up to the band. Recalling is essential. I like to give the band one mix. Someone like Joe Chiccarelli will give the band 12 different mixes with this up and that down in a confusing array of variation. Not only does that eat up time, tape budget for printing mixes, but a year from the mix date, most of those mixes will sound identical. Mixing, you should have a pretty good vision where the project is heading sonically by the 4th mix. Be sure your notes are good for the first three though and plan on recalling those to make them fit into the sonic landscape you've created. Often times, I'll have the band withhold comments until most the record is mixed and we can hear what the bulk of it sounds like. Effects can provide tremendous continuity in that regard.

[joel hamilton]

I like both. I really like it when you can work for a while, have the band come back in, then kick them out for a minute (nicely, of course) and then get back to work. I work faster and better when I am not constantly explaining what I am doing. Of course, it does depend on the situation, and what jeff said is pretty true as well.

[Rodgre]

I like to spend a few hours by myself getting the mix happening, and then have the band come in to see where we're at for the final details. Musicians tend to have ADD, so if they're sitting around for four hours while I automate tom levels, they'll be out of their minds. I was kidding about the ADD thing, by the way. No hate mail.

I like to make sure before a band even sets foot in the studio that I'm on the same page as they are, so by the time we get to the mix stage, they should feel confident enough that I can do the mix they want to hear without them there, but I like to have them there for the final run.

The hardest thing is when you make decisions along the way (putting the congas way in the back because they were played so badly, or using just the room mic on the drums because it was the only one far enough away from the drummer that you couldn't hear his loud humming as he played) and the band gets there and doesn't understand that there was a good reason why things ended up where they did.

Roger

[stapes]

(or using just the room mic on the drums because it was the only one far enough away from the drummer that you couldn't hear his loud humming as he played)
Roger[/quote]

That's hilarious! I've been recording one of the best drummers in Austin for a recent project, and he does the same thing. It's totally a subconscious thing to him, and I hate bringing up that sort of thing because it's part of how he gets into the song. It really freaked me out first time I heard it, though.

As far as mixing with the band present, I'm pretty in line with roger's philosophy. I've got to be in the same head-space as the band to be doing much of any good. I'm a little ADD just like them, so usually it helps having the most conducive environment to concentration that I can get. All in all, I usually like having the band around as long as they aren't bugging me much. I've gotten into weird situations where I've done some work without the band around, and they feel either left out, or like the direction is a little wrong. To alleviate that, I've set up some speakers out back on the patio so people can listen in a nice relaxing environment by the river and chat away without bothering me mixing. It's their music, so I generally like to have their input now and then.

Erik Wofford
Stapes Audio

[willovercome]

i like to have the band's input as much as possible. in most situations we track and mix on the same day, or in the same week, so they are going to be there whether i like it or not. usually the bands are more help than harm (from my experience).

[Bear]

If I can find the people to do it, I like to have friends with musical taste and equipment knowledge make mixes without me present (I mostly work solo, so there's no real Band issue). I don't use these mixes as finals, but I like to hear how someone else might hear the song. It might be interesting if you had different band members make mixes. i.e.--everyone leave the room while the bass player mixes the song, then everyone come back and listen to it. Then take notes and switch.

If you're not interested in that kind of thing, though, I think it's good to have different people present. And more important than just band members is finding someone you trust that doesn't play an instrument. Some of my best mixing suggestions have come from people who know absolutely nothing about the process of recording, and couldn't care less. To them, they're just hearing the song, and their feedback is usually very honest and raw, which can be just as enlightening as hearing about it from experienced folks.

So in other words, get as much variety as possible. This may not work for everyone, but it's certainly helped me.

[Al]

A few familiar tales here!!

I've done both and usually i like to get a mix happening before the band come back from there break or the pub!,and then fine tune things.

Sometimes there might be the one member who is more tuned into the whole recording process more than the rest and that's sometimes a good way to work as well,that way you dont have to second guess what someone will and wont like all the time.

also too many cooks spoil the broth ..and when all the band are there it can be a complete nightmare,and like someones already mentioned,people in general just want to hear there part irrespective of context.

Drummers can be the worst for that....more drums please a bit more snare a bit more tom please!!!! ...Aaaaaaahhhh.....fuck'n worse than guitarists!

[lsn110]

All great advice, thanks! Basically, we're going with copious notes, and then we're posting (I know, I know) mp3s for them to comment on. It's not quite as good as having them in at the end of each mix session, but I think it will work. Now I remember what I loved about working exclusively in a DAW...Then again, it doesn't sound like the Trident.

The good thing with this band is that, to a degree, it's a dictatorship. Meaning there really is only one person whose opinion matters.

Yeah...and for drummers that want you automate the volume on each hit. I say...learn to play it that way and you'll never have to ask again.

[The Gibbon]

Frankly I hate having band members around while I'm editing, signal processing, mixing or mastering. They are paying me to do that part of the project, leave me alone. With proper pre-production and discussions I think you can get a good idea of what they want to hear in the end. More time has been wasted and I've had more ear fatigue set in with band members all trying to throw their two cents in when they typically have no idea what is going on in the control room. I don't mean to give the impression that I think they are idiots, only if you want to hire me to get the job done, GREAT! If you want to do it yourself, GREAT! Just understand that the band has a budget and the drummer who is unemployed and lives off his girlfriend isn't going to come up with the extra $ to pay me for my time he wasted telling me how to eq his snare, or the bass player who wants to be the star of every song. Go home, I'll call you when I'm ready to play you the rough mixes and we'll talk about what you like or dislike and I'll adjust accordingly. I need privacy and concentration to work......Sorry to rant like that but thats my two cents.

[axial]

I like doing a pre-mix and then getting em in there and working it with them. kinda a mix of both

[wardshorsehead]

i always try to mix by myself, and once i think it's close to done, i have the artist in charge (usually the one with the checkbook) come in to go over the mixes and add theit .02. things seem to get done faster, and in the end, to everyones greater satisfaction.

Frank

[cassembler]

Yeah, I like to do the first passes alone, and then have some input from the band. It sucks to be working on the drum submix and someone says, "Why do you keep turning my guitar part on and off?"

[axial]

so true!

[cgarges]

True story:

Gospel session several years ago. Band comes in with drummer and keys. No bass player. Guitar player had broken arm and wouldn't be playing.

Choir comes in. Terrible. Everyone singing in different keys. Happily and energetically, but in different keys.

No one says anything about being displeased with the sound.

Mix time comes. Choir director/producer opts out of coming to the mix. I explain that things will go smoother with him there. No, he trusts me, he says.

He picks up a CD a few days later. Then calls and says that there's not as much low end as on other commercial CDs he buys. I explain that there's no bass. He says, "That's not it, it just doesn't sound like a CD you'd buy at a store."

I talk to my boss. He suggests offering to remix it at 50% discount. They never call back.

Total budget they spent, 8 tunes, without a bass player, expecting it to sound like John P. Kee (who I've since worked for)? About $400.

Nowadays, I tell bands that if there not there, I can't be responsible for it sounding any different from what they've been hearing at the tracking sessions. Haven't had much issue since.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC