standup bass tracking issue

[bigtoe]

hey-

i'm gonna be recording a stand up in less than ideal situations soon - small room, lots of players, standup right in the middle. i've done this a few times and not been satisfied with the results...the usual culprits: bleed and lack of definition.

any tips for me? I've used the stick the mic in a towel in the tail but never in a situation like this...i was thinking of going that way starting with an omni..

no DI - no budget for one right now...but if anyone knows some super cheap contact mic/pick or something...i'm all ears.

any help appreciated...i'd hate to let this bass player down...he wants to use electric for clarity...

happy hump day.

Mike

[mrufino1]

If you're looking for a pickup, check out the K&K stuff. I don't have one of their pickups, although I'v eheard them and they are nice, but I have two of their onboard premaps, a 1 channel and 2 channel, and they are both not expensive. Also, crown made a mic that went over the soundhole, that might work. A combination of a mic and pickup can be nice. I've never recorded an upright myslef, because I play it, but I did a session for a children's singer and we recorded live in his basement, just used a 57 pointed at the G string side soundhole combined with the pickup, worked well in that context and not too much bleed.

[joel hamilton]

I am in the middle of doing a record this way. ( small room, AC bass right in the middle of a ton of other stuff like piano, dobro, drums, all LIVE).

I am using a Lomo 19A19 just below the F-hole, sort of roughly aimed between the bridge and the F-hole.

I am also reminding the bass player to "dig in" when he is playing too quietly.

I also find that crossing my fingers and burning some sage and chanting can help, also consult a witch doctor or shaman, and have them pray the band is really good....

Use a mic with really good off axis rejection, and you will be able to crank up the bass more without bringing up the entire room....

[brian beattie]

Hey mike
I record upright in situations like this quite often. As a caveat, the bands I've recorded like this are deliberately controlling their dynamics so that the bass doesn't get overwhelmed ( meaning the drummer's not too loud...)
I've had luck with the bass player standing facing the drummer, and I use a figure-8 ribbon on the bass deliberately placed so that it is also gets a pleasant drum sound emphasizing the kick, therefore eliminating a kick drum mic. I use the bleed to minimize the # of mics. Works great.
whenever I've fought and fought to ELIMINATE the drum sound from the bass mic, I always get crappy, useless off axis information that ruins the drum sound, which in turn renders the bass sound useless as well.
brian

[bigtoe]

hey thanks...joel i'm glad you're doing that...makes me feel less freakish! i have the same instrumentation going on in a small room...

i'm thinking hitting the neck where he plucks may be best but perhaps i'll lose body...thinking out loud...hm...anyone have an opine on the off axis rejection of a 77 in cardioid?

Thank any any more tips welcomed! save my bottom!

MIke

ps - brian - you rule! i was hoping for ya...i know you do this stuff...great idea! don't fight it...work with it...i think i may have to...thanks!

[JohnDavisNYC]

in my experience as both a bassist and engineer, fingerboard mic'ing never captures the sound of the instrument, you just get 'snap and thwack'.... the way joel is doing it is turning out awesome, and that's generally the best way to do it, assuming you have a good bassist with a big sound and a clear sounding instrument. if you have problems with an overly woofy sound, try moving the mic further up the body, just above the f-holes tends to get more growl if you need defenition. also, sometimes you can get a good isolated sound with one of those small clip on audio technica jammies... they're pretty awesome live, and with a second mic for some more air it can rule.

good luck.

cheers,
john

[Reuben]

Off-axis rejection is nice, but the thing most folks don't realize is that when you put a mic or pickup on an URB the whole face of the instrument is picking up sound from other instruments and projecting them into the mic. This is why the bass is so hard to isolate.

Everyone's advice here is OK, but my preferred placement is more or less right in front of the bridge. The f-holes are the enemy of articulation. I stay away from them.

I have also had some success with SDCs wrapped in foam, but stuck up under the bridge, not the tailpiece as you mentioned. I prefer the articulation in that spot. But, every bass and every player is quite different, so use your ears and good luck.

[Reuben]

Oh, and BTW, I have a K & K pickup and it sounds kinda OK for pizzicato but terrible for arco. I usually use a David Gage Realist pickup which is a lot less harsh, but sometimes a little boomy.

The best bass pickups imaginable are made by the swiss company Schertler, but they cost a LOT.

Ah! And another micing setup that has worked in guerilla situations for me is an AT Pro 35 clip-on mic aimed at the body of the instrument, and REAL close. Best rejection of leakage yet. Not the BEST sound, but useable!

[JohnDavisNYC]

f-holes are only the enemy of articulation with a woofy bass... a clear instrument will sound pretty awesome with a good mic about a foot or less from the hole maybe slightly off axis. bridge mic'ing is great, but only in isolation... the bass doesn't speak as loudly at that point of the instrument, so when isolation is an issue, i'd recomend a variation on f-hole mic'ing.

good point about the reflection issue... one thing you can do is use the body of the bass as a baffle to the mic.... a bass player who holds the instrument properly will toe the bass in a little, i.e. they don't stand behind, more slightly angled to the side, so if you position the drums to the left, it's possible to the get body of the bass between the mic and the drums.

cheers,
john

[bigtoe]

you guys are great...i got a lot to work with now. bridge idea sounds great too. and, man, i never ever would have thought of the bass as a reflector!

"in my experience as both a bassist and engineer, fingerboard mic'ing never captures the sound of the instrument, you just get 'snap and thwack'...."

deamn. i kinda was afraid of that. makes sense.

the bass player is great, btw. i'm doing another jazz one soon...i hope this year shows me a lot of stand ups.

Mike

[dale116dot7]

Of course, for rockabilly (if you're fortunate enough to do some), you might want more fingerboard sound. I've never been happy with a pickup, but some jazz works well with a blend of pickup and mic. I've only occasionally done the bass+drums recording, and if you point the mic not right at the bass but some other angle you can use that for a room mic for the kit at the same time so I use an SDC for this application. But it does limit the ability to process the bass later (in particular, compression doesn't seem to work that well with a combined room mic drum sound plus bass on the same track), so you need a good player. My approach has been to set up a bunch of room mics around this kind of group and record everything - sometimes a room mic sound works great.

[cgarges]

Man, I've been recording a good amount of upright bass in the last couple years in a variety of situations, Same player, a few different rooms, a few different basses...different players, same rooms, different basses...different musical situations. I've just come to the conclusion that what I do for some people just flat out doesn't work for others. It's not any different miking a drumkit, why should the same setup work for a different player in a different room with a different instrument?

I'm talking BIG differences. When I started recording upright, I was all about the f-hole, because that's where I'd always seen them miked. But the bass seemed woofy on some of those projects. Then, I started experimenting with the behind-the-fingerboard thing. That is consistently cooler than anything else I've tried, but there's a couple of techniques that can be of assistance. Then one guy I know (it was Ron, Mike) suggested putting a mic directly in front of the strings and below the bridge pointed at the bass. This worked for some things and didn't have much attack for others. Lately, I've really been enjoying a cardioid ribbon mic in this spot just below where the neck meets the body, but I've also been taking an omni lavelier behind the fingerboard, too (when the bass player's isolated), and this has been working great. But certain things change depending on the player, the sound of their bass, and their technique.

Players who have a boingy-sounding bass with a lot of information in the mids tend to benefit from the f-hole miking setup. Players with good, loud, full-sounding uprights tend to benefit from that area just below eher the neck meets the body.

The spot behind the fingerboard is great for most situations, too, but I've learned a couple of things about that:

If you use and omni mic, you wil get bleed. This can be okay or this can be a total pain depending on the volume of the other instruments in relation to the bass, the sound of the room, and how miuh the bass player is going to want you to EQ his tone into submission afterwards.

Using a mic in a rolled-up towel or something is a cool plan until the bass player has one of those pickups that connect under one side of the bridge and the cable for the 1/4" jack runs right through there and blocks it. A nice alternative is the omni lavelier taped to the back of the fingerboard, hanging about an inch below where it ends. Both these methods are cool because the mic position doesn't change when the player moves and it's not at all obtrusive in terms of playing arco (with a bow).

A cardioid mic in the same position (behind the strings, below the fingerboard) can yield nice recults, but can be difficult to position without getting in the player's way. Depending on the mic and the room, there can also be a lot of LF buildup, but the overall tone can be really nice if you filter some of that out.

You'll also probably be tempted to compress the bass a lot, but be aware of bringing whatever bleed is there up in volume when you start compressing.

Those are my thoughts. Good luck!

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[Mix413]

I've had nice results with an RCA 44a or Coles 4038 facing the f-hole area. If you position the mic so that the null in the figure 8 pattern is facing the drums and put a gobo or baffle of some sort on the back side you can eliminate a significant amount of bleed.

I've never tried it, but I've heard of wrapping a Sennheiser 441 in a towel and sticking that between the body and the bridge.

[johnny7]

I have had reasonable results with an m160 down near the bridge. It's pattern is tight so that helps in the ejection department. It is amazing. though, how much difference the players fingers make! Anyone can strum a guitar and get a decent sound - that ain't the case with upright...

[brian beattie]

Hey mike
I've found that any close mic'ing of the f-ing f hole usually gives you 16 tons of bottom, and no articulation. If you're able to set the mic back a foot or two ar three, you might get a nice sound pointing at the f hole. I believe in your situation you will have to mic closer, because of the proximity of others. If the bass player has EXQUISITE technique, (and doesn't whack in your presence...) I've found mic'ing the fretboard can work out great. But, of course, like chris says, it all depends on the bass and the bass players fingers.
one of the best bass sounds I ever got was with a 414 pointed straight at the upper shoulder of the instrument, at the corner where the front meets the side, maybe 2 or 3 inches away. It was an overdub however, and this is a particularly quiet part of the instrument. It wouldn't work for your sutuation. Pointing at the bridge, or slightly above or below will work nicely, I bet. It's a louder section of the instrument that offers less bass frequencies, which you can adjust for with a little proximity.
I believe that the most common problem with a mic'ed bass is TOO MUCH bass frequencies, and not enough articulation. Go for "the voice" or "the growl", and then just crank up the volume. When I get seduced by the "boom", I always end up cutting lows later to get the sound in context.
Tell us what happens.
brian