Cure for weak and mushy guitars?

[stuben_baines]

I've been happy with the sounds I've been getting on my Otari 1/2" 8 track with vocals, drums and bass, but whenever I do guitars, I'm disappointed.

It seems like the majority of my guitar tracks end up really mushy and weak. I'm not looking for a huge sound, but something that cuts at least. I'm recording the guitars pretty hot, and I've tried using both dynamic and condensers on them and bought a treble-booster. Of course solo'ed they are OK, but once I get them in the mix, they disappear. They seem weak and murky sounding.

I can finally start to hear them once I crank the level up, but of course at that point it sounds terrible just laying on top of the mix.

Does anyone have any tips to try with guitars? Am I just screwed by using a 1/2" format? I'm just using my stock mic pres off the board, could that be an area to look into improving? Compress them?

Dennis

[BrianK]

Funny enough. it's probably not your format. Are you using PODs? That lacks the presence and highs to make them "cut". Some amps do this too.

An old standby is the Aphex Aural Exciter: It has a BAD rep from misuse, but it does the trick with anything mushy. It adds subtle high end that is NOT THERE before. Use it minutely and it works great.... they should sell for cheap now - no one wants them.

[llmonty]

in order of impact of your sound - likely sources:

Arrangement
player
guitar/amp combination
mic
pre
recording format.

can you tell us more about the set up? guitar/amp, settings, room style, mic positions?

it also might have very much to do with the arrangement and eq settings. a scooped (no mids) guitar sound is wonderful by itself - huge, powerful etc, but often in a mix it disappears bc it overlaps with the other instruments too much. adding mids, and making the guitar sound more focused may take away from the sound alone, but in the mix it will be just right.

there are also overdubbing techniques that can help here too - complementary guitar parts etc.

[telepathy]

it also might have very much to do with the arrangement and eq settings. a scooped (no mids) guitar sound is wonderful by itself - huge, powerful etc, but often in a mix it disappears bc it overlaps with the other instruments too much. adding mids, and making the guitar sound more focused may take away from the sound alone, but in the mix it will be just right.

what he said.

what's the guitar/amp setup? what kind of pickups? pedals? (aside from the treble booster -- which won't do a heck of a lot in getting the part to sit better in the mix, it's really meant to push your amp in a certain way to saturate the highs and give you a Brian May/early Tony Iommi kinda sound. and when I say "highs" I mean in terms of a guitar amp, whose high end is very different from the "high end" response we're speaking of when talking about a mic pre or a tape machine)

the aural exciter might help a little, but more likely that falls into the "polishing a turd" approach ... the existing guitar tracks are probably not doing it for you based on the tone as it was tracked.

a suggestion that might help in many ways -- get a Telecaster or an LP Jr.

[Rigsby]

If they're sounding good soloed then it's probably that the frequencies are clashing with other instruments (quite likely the bass), roll off some of the bass frequencies off the guitars and compress. How much of either is really hard to tell without hearing anything, but that's a good place to start. Obviously, do this within the mix rather than on solo. Good luck.

[Phalaris]

some of the SPL gear is cool: ie the vitalizer and transient designer.

I would say, if you are using amps, to move the mic's around and switch up microphones and amp settings.

[stuben_baines]

Thanks for the responses. I do notice the player has a lot to do with it too, since with the poor players, it definitely takes a lot longer to get a good sound.

I try to keep the guitar as simple as possible. No PODs or modelling tools. I go into a tube Champ, Airline or Peavey Delta Blues. Then mic it with a SM 58, EV 666, or EV 656 close to the grill. Other times I'll put either a Blueberry or 4047 away from the amp a little. Not too many effects besides the treble booster, which I only use sometimes. I do have a germanium type fuzz too. So I am into that late 60s/early 70s Page/Iommi sound. I like 60s rock guitar too, so I've tried to keep things simple with no chorus or more modern sounds. I know it's wrong to always expect Beatles level quality, but when I listen to a song like Fixing a Hole or Getting Better, you just hear that guitar jump at you when it comes in. It's a little crunchy, but nothing too obnoxious. But it just sits in there so well.

I guess playing more with the arrangement and eq seems to be the way to go. I was wondering how much the mic pre would be responsible for the weakness of the sound, but that seems to be at the bottom end of everyone's list.

Dennis

[UXB]

I don't think you mentioned what pre you are using, but I can relate to your conundrum. Amplified guitar has a particular overtone structure which can definitely sound "strange" or papery in many situations. I have found that my nicer, big xformer pre's seem to be what the doctor ordered for this. I"m not sure if it's the transformer itself(which would be an oversimplification), but the transcient seems to explode like dynamite as opposed to sounding like a cap gun. It may have to do with slew rate etc, but I digress (and talk out of another orofice). It just seems the right pre in this circumstance makes all the difference in my studio.
I would reflect on the pre in this equation, use small amps, and try pulling the mic off of the grill cloth and see if it places things better. What are the competing tracks in your mix as well, vox? keys?

Sorry if this turns into a "buy something to fix your problem" sounding response. My only intention is to expose a potential weak link.

-H

[llmonty]

thanks for the info on your setup. yes, i think you will be well served with focusing on the eq/arrangement. recording over the past fews years has had a huge impact on my arranging style. when a songwriter sits at the piano or guitar they often try to play everything at once. then when it is a band situation, they still play the same parts and it just clashes.

I have found that my complex/dissonant 4-5-6 note chords on guitar sound terrible when all played at once. but spread those notes out to the bass, and maybe 2 guitar parts that are playing 1-2-3 note chords/lines with different sounds maybe in different registers - and lots of space opens up.

if you have a spectrum analyzer it might be handy to see visually where all the parts exist across the frequencies. and/or use a good reference cd and see how that eq curve looks.

[rimbaud234]

Use an 1176 compressor.