Cross-stick snare miking. HOW?

[Ivon]

I am new to miking drum kits and have run to into a roadblock of sorts. Aside from trying different mic brands, are there specific placement techniques any one knows of to really bring out the snare when cross-sticking? So far, I've just been miking the snare with a mic placed 2 inches from the snare head, three inches in from the rim, pointed at a 45 degree angle and I just can't seem to get the presence/volume I need relative to the rest of the kit when recording cross-sticking.

Thanks Much,
Ivon

[joel hamilton]

Turn up the pre.
Seriously. Does the drummer go into a full blast snare hit at some point? SOmetimes on Dub/reggae type stuff I have compressed (limited) the snare if we had to go straight into PT, and I also had the soft clip function engaged, because the cross stick was SOOOOO much quieter than the giant flam accents. I just cranked the pre up and crossed my fingers, and threw a limiter in front of the conversion, because the transient is short enough to get the blast from the room mics even if the snare gets a little "dull" on the extreme smashes.

Aside from turing it up, you can do the smae thing during the mix, turn it up.

I find that a compressed room mic gets a lot of theside stick, as do the OH's if all is well.

Random thoughs because I have no idea what your specific situation is, really.

Hope it helps.

[Slider]

In the past I have:

Put up another mic right where the stick hits the rim, then switched tracks around depending on what the drummer is hitting, the snare, or the rim.

Or, I've just multed the snare track to two channels and set one up for actual snare hits and one up for stick, then automate them for each part.
I just did this on a mix recently.
I set up a gate and EQ on the stick channel with the full on cheese verb (why are we forced to do this stuff?) and had the snare track with different EQ and level, then automated them back and forth for each part.
Computers have made this job MUCH easier and faster for me.

If you have a mic on the wrong side of the snare for sidestick, you might get more hat then crossstick.

I've seen folks use a 57 for the hits and a KM84 for the sidesticks.
Or you could just compress it and try to get your mic in a good place to get both.

For vintage dub style stuff you don't really want it all that clean anyway, so the limiting and or compression method might just add a nice character to the overall sound.
Good luck.

[cgarges]

Or, I've just multed the snare track to two channels and set one up for actual snare hits and one up for stick, then automate them for each part.
I just did this on a mix recently.
I set up a gate and EQ on the stick channel with the full on cheese verb (why are we forced to do this stuff?) and had the snare track with different EQ and level, then automated them back and forth for each part.

This is pretty much what I do if the cross stick needs to really stick out (but not always with the cheesy 'verb). Automation isn't really even necessary. Just switch muted channels at the appropriate time. Old school.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[wwittman]

With a really GOOD drummer it's not a problem... but sometimes, I agree, you have to put up a second mic aimed at the contact point of the cross stick.
Take it on another track and either bounce it in or mute the mic not being used when he switches from stick to open snare and vice versa.
A little boost (or a lot) around 1K also helps get the crack of the cross stick to cut through.

If you already have it recorded with one mic, on a DAW, one can also make a second track of the cross stick only parts and EQ it (the 1K-ish boost) and gain it up to be loud enough relative to the other , open, snare track.

[Rigsby]

Or, I've just multed the snare track to two channels and set one up for actual snare hits and one up for stick, then automate them for each part.
I just did this on a mix recently.
I set up a gate and EQ on the stick channel with the full on cheese verb (why are we forced to do this stuff?) and had the snare track with different EQ and level, then automated them back and forth for each part.

This is pretty much what I do if the cross stick needs to really stick out (but not always with the cheesy 'verb). Automation isn't really even necessary. Just switch muted channels at the appropriate time. Old school.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

I do this too, but go into the edit window and remove all the snare hits from the cross, and vice versa, then there's no need to automate or move the faders. If you're going to do this though, you have to remember that they'll be bleed, so to keep it sounding fairly natural, edit both parts at once and make sure the ends meet.

[Ivon]

Hmmm...

Good tips. Thank you all for the advice. I'll definitely give them a try and see what I can come up with. I've been trying to avoid compressing any part of the kit going in, but obviously it's a technique that is tried and true. Plus, I guess it's time to put that rack compressor I never use...to good use.

Best Regards,
Ivon

[wwittman]

I hate compressed drum mics, and theres' really no need to compress cross-stick.

[maz]

I don't know what you're working in, but in PT or other DAW, I'll often blend a cross stick sample in there as well.

[cgarges]

I hate compressed drum mics, and theres' really no need to compress cross-stick.

Hey William,

Glad to see you back here!

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[Slider]

I hate compressed drum mics, and theres' really no need to compress cross-stick.

That's funny I usually hate uncompressed drums.
Unless I'm going for that kind of stark Neil Young drum sound, or it's Jazz or something.

[Stephen B.]

I long for a cross-stick sound like Vinnie (Colaiuta) gets. I guess I need to get Vinnie in here.

[Milkmansound]

Yeah, that would really be best.

[Ivon]

I hate compressed drum mics, and theres' really no need to compress cross-stick.

Yeah, that's been the sentiment of some of my peers - and I was echoing that sentiment. So, I hear ya. But this post is all a reaction on my part, by the way, to responses from publishing companies stating that my production is not up to industry standards...and from what I've been reading here, and elsewhere, is that compression is commonly used for drum and vocal miking...something that I haven't been doing. So, here I go.

The style of this particular composition that I've been trying to record is in the genre of rock (with a slight latin influence). It's 140 bpm - I don't use the cross-sticking technique during the choruses and bridge sections - the song really picks up, and opens up during these parts. But I love the kind of tension and pulse you can create with the cross-sticking - I really want to capture it accurately. It's just a matter of more experimentation, I suppose...but keeping in mind the suggestions of others who've had success in miking this sort of thing in the past.

I've spent most of the afternoon today messing around with mic setups, compression, placing reflective surfaces beneath the snare drum and applying various send effects to the kit to fatten the overall sound and create some real punch and snap to the snare. I'm getting closer.

By the way, I'm recording using software via a digital mixer and USB interface going into the PC. I plugged the compression unit into the designated snare channel using I/O and am sending effects using the aux send/receives on the mixer. Any other suggestions, I mean...is this a good route to go in terms of set-up for a computer recording?

Thanks,
Ivon

[Ivon]

FYI, I've been experimenting with different compression settings on the snare, as was suggested earlier in this thread...and I'm definitely getting the sound I was looking for. A lil compression gives the snare a nice, bright *POP*.

Thanks for the advice.

BTW, now I'm having kick drum issues. I'm getting overtones and I think they're coming from the hi and mid tom mics. Anyone experienced this problem? I've heard that placing an absorbent blanket over the kick can help. I'm gonna try that, but I'd love to hear other suggestions.

Thanks Much,

Ivonoviche