new to tape....

[iford]

whats up guys, I am new to the analog tape recording world, and to be honest I havn't recorded much period yet (just a few things on the computer). I play guitar and drums and also produce hiphop beats for fun.

I am looking for that warm analog sound especially for my hiphop production. I definetly hear it when its there and I WANT IT. right now money is tight, considering I had to get some other equipment first but now I need recording gear. I was looking at tascam 388 1/4" R2R machines but then I started thinking, let me start off with a decent 8-track cassette recorder. I heard about the tascam 238s, which is good enough to get my feet wet I think. Its alot cheaper for now and that is the only reason im not going straight for the reel to reel machines just yet. but I need a mixer and preamp for this. I just need a reccomendation on a good mixer for it and also preamps. for the mixer I cant dump anything over $350 on one. I was looking at those old tascam mixer's like the m-208, but i think I want 16 channels. and for preamps, I have no idea what to get. i dont want mackie or behringer.


any help would be very appreciated. thank you.

[Zeppelin4Life]

you might want to just record to digital and then bounce to a stereo reel deck then back. it makes life easier. plus, its a pretty lousy time to jump into a analog now. buy stuff right now before tape is $500 a reel

[Tim Casey]

I'd save up my cash while sticking to what I already own if I were you. You need to develop a base of knowledge before you can make decisions like this (for instance - you want a wicked old TASCAM mixer but don't want a mackie or a behringer? I betcha the mackie or the behringer would sound a lot better). Read as much as you can, record as much as you can, and listen as much as you can. Also, get an equalizer (or use the one on your computer) so you can start familiarizing yourself with the sounds of various frequency bands. This will be more important to you than anything else, and you'll use this knowledge for the rest of your life, long after all these equipment manufacturers are gone.

I'm being really nice about this, but in my life I've been really frustrated watching people try to buy their way haphazardly toward good audio when all they had to do was stop talking and start listening.

At least you don't have a lot to spend - I've seen kids blow $40,000 on equipment that they didn't understand because they thought they'd turn into George Martin at Abbey Road.

[iford]

thanks for the advice guys. I do appreciate it even though its not what I wanted to hear, and I completly understand that you guys could get fustrated, or annoyed when you hear questions like these from complete newbie's like myself. I tried to read as much as I could on this before I even asked anything. I listen to music as much as possible everyday. its a sick demented hobby. The sound that I really love is for example as far as rock goes, pink floyd and zeppelin kind of recording's, basicly the sound of almost any records from the late 60's through the 70's on into even the early 80's. thats the sound I want. The way the drums sound and the warmth of it is quite obvious to me, and thats possible with digital recording? thats possible recording onto the computer and then back onto a 1/2" 2-track reel to reel deck then back onto the computer?

To tell you the truth I am not trying to start up a recording studio for anyone else but myself. I play the drums and guitar and I use sampler's for other various instruments, even drum sample's. I dig for records from those times (late60's-early 80's) cause thats the sound im looking for. I am on some weird shit to tell you the truth, and I like the sound of analog recording it kinda makes it sound raw. It just sounds cool to me. I am not trying to get a record deal or anything like that, I dont have a band, I will not be recording bands unless my friends ask me to after they hear the amazing shit I have planned. haha

All I want is a good cassette 8 track, maybe a mackie 1202, some outboard effects like tube compressor, etc (which I allready have from guitar) and my instruments and I will be a happy man. I am well aware that a tascam 8-track recorder is not going to make anything I do sound like floyd or zeppelin did, but it's definetly going to make me happier than this computer does. The only thing I'll use this computer for is to put my work on cd format in the end.

for my final question.... do I sound retarded??

[hiwatt33]

thanks for the advice guys. I do appreciate it even though its not what I wanted to hear, and I completly understand that you guys could get fustrated, or annoyed when you hear questions like these from complete newbie's like myself. I tried to read as much as I could on this before I even asked anything. I listen to music as much as possible everyday. its a sick demented hobby. The sound that I really love is for example as far as rock goes, pink floyd and zeppelin kind of recording's, basicly the sound of almost any records from the late 60's through the 70's on into even the early 80's. thats the sound I want. The way the drums sound and the warmth of it is quite obvious to me, and thats possible with digital recording? thats possible recording onto the computer and then back onto a 1/2" 2-track reel to reel deck then back onto the computer?

To tell you the truth I am not trying to start up a recording studio for anyone else but myself. I play the drums and guitar and I use sampler's for other various instruments, even drum sample's. I dig for records from those times (late60's-early 80's) cause thats the sound im looking for. I am on some weird shit to tell you the truth, and I like the sound of analog recording it kinda makes it sound raw. It just sounds cool to me. I am not trying to get a record deal or anything like that, I dont have a band, I will not be recording bands unless my friends ask me to after they hear the amazing shit I have planned. haha

All I want is a good cassette 8 track, maybe a mackie 1202, some outboard effects like tube compressor, etc (which I allready have from guitar) and my instruments and I will be a happy man. I am well aware that a tascam 8-track recorder is not going to make anything I do sound like floyd or zeppelin did, but it's definetly going to make me happier than this computer does. The only thing I'll use this computer for is to put my work on cd format in the end.

for my final question.... do I sound retarded??

FWIW, I wouldn't waste time/money on a cassette 8 track. I have known people that had them, and hated the sound.

[iford]

hiwatt.... damn that sucks. whatever, I am going to try it anyway cause I hear mixed opinions about everything in this world, so I guess I just have to see for myself. Atleast I know the sound I am looking for so when I find it, i'll know it. right now its not a what ive done on this computer. thanks again everyone. peace....

[dsw]

Here's the problem with 8 track cassette recorders: The tape area available for each track is really tiny. The sound will have no life or realism. Back when tape was all there was the effort was to drag the sound up out of the mud. Up past the hiss and the noise. When we listened to the music that you admire now it was on a record player and there was always the sound of the needle scraping across the vinyl and the dust and the scratches. I remember clearly the first DAT tape recordings I heard and was blown away at how clear they sounded. How life-like the cymbals seemed and how there was just NO noise!
We weren't standing around going "gee it sounds cold..." We were amazed and excited by the possibliblity of a recording that had no surface noise to get in the way and had no distortion at all. It sounded really good at the time.
Here's three things that will always improve any recording session: 1)Use the best mic you can afford. It all starts here. 2) record with as much level as you can. Keep your recording levels as hot as you can without distorting. 3) experiment with mic positioning.
Computer recording can sound really good if the front end is handled well. Keep in mind those Pink Floyd records you like the sound of were made in million dollar studios with state of the art gear and the very best engineers available. It wasn't just the fact that they were using tape that makes it sound the way it sounds.
My two cents.

[JohnDavisNYC]

actually... the 238 holds a very warm place in my heart (and in my spare room here where it lies covered in mud from the flood.. i wanted to use a loop cassette to make an 8 note mellotron) for being the first multitrack i owned (after borrowing a 234 for ages)... now, say what you will about that machine, but i got some fucking awesome recordings with that, and formed the basis for my knowledge of studio routing and signal flow and gain structure and all that. looking at that, a mackie 1402, and a bunch of cable and saying "now how the fuck do i get this to work the way i want it to" was the best recording school ever. i'm sure i learned way more in those next few frustrating weeks of finding the best possible routing (which turned out to be running tracks 1-6 with the inserts of the mic pre channels and 7 and 8 off the 'alt3/4' bus. had to watch out for muting the channels... nice blast of direct feedback if that tracks were armed...) than i ever would have learned at a 'recording school'.. i say that because forcing yourself to figure something out blind will almost always result in a deeper knowledge and understanding than merely being 'told how it's done'. anyway, i got stuff out of that machine that sounded way better than a Digi001 (at least without an external clock).

YMMV

cheers,
john

[Zeppelin4Life]

The sound that I really love is for example as far as rock goes, pink floyd and zeppelin kind of recording's, basicly the sound of almost any records from the late 60's through the 70's on into even the early 80's. thats the sound I want.

that sound is usually production over gear. although these classic rock artists of the 60s/70s used top notch analog gear, there is still ways to get a similar sound. its mostly ambience. that is, room mics. also, great engineers and great studios and other work (like mastering and stuff. Remember, good gear only makes things sound better once the original was already 'not bad'. you cant polish shit!

[gog]

the 388 is a great machine... much better fidelity than a 8 trk cassette deck... although the thin 1/4 inch tape it uses might soon be hard to find... not sure.
good luck

[Scodiddly]

Here's the problem with 8 track cassette recorders: The tape area available for each track is really tiny. The sound will have no life or realism. Back when tape was all there was the effort was to drag the sound up out of the mud. Up past the hiss and the noise. When we listened to the music that you admire now it was on a record player and there was always the sound of the needle scraping across the vinyl and the dust and the scratches. I remember clearly the first DAT tape recordings I heard and was blown away at how clear they sounded. How life-like the cymbals seemed and how there was just NO noise!
We weren't standing around going "gee it sounds cold..." We were amazed and excited by the possibliblity of a recording that had no surface noise to get in the way and had no distortion at all. It sounded really good at the time.
Here's three things that will always improve any recording session: 1)Use the best mic you can afford. It all starts here. 2) record with as much level as you can. Keep your recording levels as hot as you can without distorting. 3) experiment with mic positioning.
Computer recording can sound really good if the front end is handled well. Keep in mind those Pink Floyd records you like the sound of were made in million dollar studios with state of the art gear and the very best engineers available. It wasn't just the fact that they were using tape that makes it sound the way it sounds.
My two cents.

+1

[Tim Casey]

iford:

If you do buy an 8-track portastudio, you won't need a mixer. It comes with one already.

Cassettes have this frequency response "hump" around the hi end of the bass scale (I forget - maybe 300Hz?) that is noticeable. I used a TASCAM 8-track for years, and although I loved it, I was SO glad when I started recording digitally. I'd stay away from it.

What are you using to record on your computer? If it's just some line in or mic in jacks that came with the computer (or a sound card, if you're using a PC) then, yeah, it's going to sound pretty crappy. Go out and buy a firewire or USB audio interface and some kind of condenser mic with your $350 and you're going to notice an enormous boost in quality (make sure your interface has XLR mic inputs with phantom power - the condenser mic is going to need it). Then just get to work. Over time, your recordings will sound better and better. And don't try looking for a "particular" sound until you've mastered how to get the best sound possible from your equipment. THEN and only then can you make esoteric judgement calls about how to manipulate that sound.

It's good to hear that you're not looking for a major label deal or anything like that; just do this for your own head.