Budgeting: Real Studio vs DAW

[@?,*???&?]

Are you guys with the mescellaneous DAWs being sure to spend money at a real facility, with a real console and a real monitoring system for the tracking portion of the project or are you trying to make a go of it with much lesser equipment to save money? If so, why?

[tiger vomitt]

feeling snobby are ya?

[evan]

Are you guys with the mescellaneous DAWs being sure to spend money at a real facility, with a real console and a real monitoring system for the tracking portion of the project or are you trying to make a go of it with much lesser equipment to save money? If so, why?

Didn't you just answer your own question?

What it comes down to is A) you drop a couple grand for a single project, or B) invest that into recording equipment for a limitless number of projects. Granted, A will (hopefully) produce a better end result, but I don't think you should underestimate how far sub-par equipment can take you. Listen to the Shins, Microphones, or the Bees (a.k.a. A Band Of Bees) -- all home recordists with perfectly relishable recordings.

[The Gibbon]

I've been recording at school with a Sony DMX-R 100, Pro Tools & ADATs......Large Pro Rooms with SSL Consoles....and at home with my chumpy Delta 1010 and Sonic Foundry Vegas software....the only thing that matters in my mind is that you do record regardless of what you have....either be involved or don't.

[Rick Hunter]

I record my stuff on Digital Performer and it sounds pretty cool. If I was making a bunch of money off my recordings I might go somewhere else. But I am not so, tomarrow when I get an idea, I am going to record it...cause I can. And that is Bitchen. Fucking A.

[wardshorsehead]

I would guess that a number of folks do either or both, and in various combinations for various reasons. I think some folks are fully home recordists, and otherwise might not record at all if the only option were to go into a studio. Other folks probably demo at home, or overdub at home using a studio to track certain things, and maybe mixdown. Others might do album releases at a studio, after doing several do-it-yourself projects at home.

Myself, I mostly record at home or on location, but have recorded in various studios as well.

I think the fact that technology has gotten inexpensive enough to set up a pretty decent outfit at home has certainly caused the home recording population to grow. I think this has been a great equalizer for independant artists who now have the option to experiment and craft their work for a price that several years ago would have only bought enough studio time for a couple of tracks. At the same time, being able to buy equipment and use it well, making sound choices, isn't always synonymous.

Judging by the tone of your question, I am assuming that you don't look that favorably on the DIY folks employing the tapeop asthetic as its being called around here.

To that end, I understand many of the criticisms. About 10-15 years ago, graphic design professionals greatest complaint was the shoody design that was permeating the market at the hands of desktop publishers. All of the sudden, anyone with a Mac, Quark, Photoshop, and a selection of stock photos and fonts was able to create ready for press (and now web) design. Certainly, having the gear and hanging out one's shingle as a graphic designer, does not a designer make. The same can be true of home recordists and home project studios.

In both instances, there is truth, and there are exceptions. I think that it is the optimism of the folks here on this board, readers of the magazine, and folks featured in the magazine, that they may be the exception.

I think that it is also a balance between goals and perspective. If you are in a band for fun, and you enjoy making music, and can record what you do pretty well at home, then why not? If you are staking your future on making at living at playing and recording, then the route you might take (including the financial commitment that goes with the pursuit of these goals) is in a whole different ballgame.

For many, it is a way to get there feet wet, and decide with a pretty small financial investment, if this sort of thing is for them.

I'm curious as to the impetus of your question...and if I read into in too far, I apologize. How did you start recoding? Was it on an SSL console and Otari deck, or with a 58 and Porta 1? As with any endeavor, there is an evolution.

Good question though....

Frank

[gone]

...

[percussion boy]

Okay, I'll make trouble.

I've always found tracking at "real" facilities to be an enormous waste of money; thank God it was somebody else's. Having a live room, a grand piano, and a bunch of gear is all pretty much beside the point if the engineer is mediocre or disinterested, and that's what I saw with most of the bands and songwriters I recorded with.

Understand, I'm not talking about the studios major label acts use -- I'm talking about the studios that musicians with day jobs can afford.

Obviously, there are great engineers and great studios -- but not enough of 'em. It's sort of like drummer vs. drum machine; a great drummer is better than a box, a box is better than your typical bad drummer. Unlimited recording time in your own space with a reel to reel, DAW, or even multitrack cassette can yield a more moving recording than a couple days in a halfassed studio.

This is not a slap at all the engineers on this board who have their heart in it -- I wish I'd recorded with some of you guys. Show me an affordable 2" 16 track room with good gear and gifted staff, and I would track there forever.

FWIW.

[edited for clarity and tact]

[evan]

I think the fact that technology has gotten inexpensive enough to set up a pretty decent outfit at home has certainly caused the home recording population to grow. I think this has been a great equalizer for independant artists who now have the option to experiment and craft their work for a price that several years ago would have only bought enough studio time for a couple of tracks.

I had written a little spiel, only to find that it was said by Frank. Well said, Frank.

[CDB Studios]

Show me an affordable 2" 16 track room with good gear and gifted staff, and I would track there forever.

FWIW.

[edited for clarity and tact]

Too bad you're in San Fran and I'm in Wisconsin.

-Zach

[aeser]

i like real studio's i'm just not rich, so for the time being i make do with a DAW and am saving up for a 2" 24 track and an analog board because i like to record far more than i have the money to go into another studio.

[axial]

I started recording simply cause, I wanted to record local acts for cheaper. I mean 500-800 for a demo and its no better than what I can produce with a tascam 38, vegas and some berhinger, please. I went through the same thing many of time and wanted to be able to demo myself before cutting basic tracks in a good room, then I could overdub at my house and take it to be mastered and if needed remixed. In turn saving me alot of money and alot of local creative bands money as well. I have already spent thousands because I became addicted though, it has evolved into much more of a hobby, and its beatiful to be involved in other areas of music I've gained some valuble perpsective. I have two bands I feel are great who are letting me produce their first LPs. Thats right, help them with the songs help with over all dynamics and space in the album. Before it was like yeah come in we'll get as much as we can just buy the tape, and now its like just buy the tape lets record an album until we get it sweet!

I dunno if this answers anything jus my 99cents

[@?,*???&?]

Good to get you guys thinking. It's not snobbery on my part, it's a fact that the recording industry on a professional level has been impacted by this. I used to work at a home studio in Los Angeles equipped like a room from A & M studios. SSL, tons of vintage equipment, 2 Studers, 2 Otari 32 digital machines, blah, blah, blah. The owner of Conway studios in Hollywood had a fit that there was this home studio as good as any room he had in his 'legitimate' facility offering business with a swimming pool. He ended up running the studio owner I was working for out of town (he moved to Nashville) over zoning laws. I know for a fact he didn't see this DAW, home recording thing coming 10 years later.

As home recordists, make it a point to thank those local 'big' studios for being around and providing what they provide. Use them as the resources that they are. Have you visited them? Have you tracked there? Do you know what equipment they have? Do they rent equipment? Even if you don't track there, this is still practical income for a studio. It'd be nice to actually use that Neumman U87 for vocals next time. See if they rent and use it at home.

I only mention this because this is a dilemma largescale studios have to ponder. There was a question a few pages ago from a studio owner asking what console he should equip his top flight studio with. If DAWs are what the most people working, then the answer should have been Pro Tools. So much of it depends on client and target audience.

I spent most of the 90's working on many different consoles MCI, API, Neve, DDA, AMEK, but primarily always returning to mix on an SSL. I started on a 4-track Tascam Porta 05.

I've found that once you work in a room that has no acoustic anomalies for monitoring, you can start to make more critical decisions and finally 'hear what the hell you're doing'. I've got a DAW Pro Tools set-up too and that's now in it's 4th different housing situation. This is sonically the best it's been, but it's not an acoustically sound environment.

I think the DAW thing can be a quick cop-out for many. Work on that and only that because it's what you know- but I contend you will learn more in a real studio that will make you a better engineer.

Would Nigel Godrich create such well-engineered masterpieces if were working on a DAW in his bedroom? Unlikely.

Go to a real studio for a vintage console with many inputs and busses. Go to a real studio for an amazing mic locker. Go to a real studio and get the best there and take it home to work with on your DAW. If you cut to tape at a real studio and dump to a DAW you're going to be mighty impressed when you hear these drums compared to those others you cut with your band in your basement with your Behringer equipment.

The coach in me to you guys says, "I think everyone has to experience the real studio if you plan on calling yourself an engineer."

As for the disinterested engineer you work in a studio- you didn't do your homework if that's who did your record. It is a veiled process finding the right talent to make your record. Some major labels use www.rpmdirect.com. Some people use www.studiomenu.com others go directly to producer/engineer managers like Moir/Marie, Worldsend or Nettwerk. Sometimes it's a band manager that makes contact.

[Bear]

Personally, I love recording at home. Granted, I'm going to have to sacrifice some some things in order to do so, but being able to track whenever I want is well worth it to me. When I get the inspiration, I can hop on out to my tool shed and track the idea immediately while I'm still pumped about it. Some of my best vocal takes have come at four in the morning; some of my best ideas have popped up weeks after I thought I'd finished the song. Being pushed into time slots would really hurt the way I work, and I don't think I could be nearly as creative without paying shitloads for it (which is money I don't have).

And I really don't feel that studios are so essential these days. A friend of mine recorded three songs at Tree Studios in Atlanta last year, and even though everything sounded really nice, he only had two days for all three songs because it was so expensive. He came back wishing he could re-track some bits and add some new intruments, but knew that he couldn't because of cost. Now, for their newest CD, he's making in their practice room, and even though it doesn't sound as clean and sparkly as all the songs he's done in studios over the past three years, it has a hell of a lot more character, in large part because he's been able to tweak and mold the recordings over long periods of time.

A similar deal with Wilco. Though I do like their first three albums, Yankee Hotel Foxtrot sounds infinitely better than all of them, and they recorded it themselves. And as was said, groups like Grandaddy, the Shins and The Microphones have made some excellent albums at home.

So while I do think that studios can get some great sounds--much better than home stuff in terms of "quality"--I think the time/money restraints hurt things. It might be different if you play in a band and plan to record everything exactly how you play it, because there probably won't be anything you want to change. But if you're out to make one of those "artistic" albums and you don't have lots of funding to back you, I think you lose more than you gain...well, as long as you have good enough sense about recording yourself.

[aeser]

Good to get you guys thinking. It's not snobbery on my part, it's a fact that the recording industry on a professional level has been impacted by this. I used to work at a home studio in Los Angeles equipped like a room from A & M studios. SSL, tons of vintage equipment, 2 Studers, 2 Otari 32 digital machines, blah, blah, blah. The owner of Conway studios in Hollywood had a fit that there was this home studio as good as any room he had in his 'legitimate' facility offering business with a swimming pool. He ended up running the studio owner I was working for out of town (he moved to Nashville) over zoning laws. I know for a fact he didn't see this DAW, home recording thing coming 10 years later.

As home recordists, make it a point to thank those local 'big' studios for being around and providing what they provide. Use them as the resources that they are. Have you visited them? Have you tracked there? Do you know what equipment they have? Do they rent equipment? Even if you don't track there, this is still practical income for a studio. It'd be nice to actually use that Neumman U87 for vocals next time. See if they rent and use it at home.

I only mention this because this is a dilemma largescale studios have to ponder. There was a question a few pages ago from a studio owner asking what console he should equip his top flight studio with. If DAWs are what the most people working, then the answer should have been Pro Tools. So much of it depends on client and target audience.

I spent most of the 90's working on many different consoles MCI, API, Neve, DDA, AMEK, but primarily always returning to mix on an SSL. I started on a 4-track Tascam Porta 05.

I've found that once you work in a room that has no acoustic anomalies for monitoring, you can start to make more critical decisions and finally 'hear what the hell you're doing'. I've got a DAW Pro Tools set-up too and that's now in it's 4th different housing situation. This is sonically the best it's been, but it's not an acoustically sound environment.

I think the DAW thing can be a quick cop-out for many. Work on that and only that because it's what you know- but I contend you will learn more in a real studio that will make you a better engineer.

Would Nigel Godrich create such well-engineered masterpieces if were working on a DAW in his bedroom? Unlikely.

Go to a real studio for a vintage console with many inputs and busses. Go to a real studio for an amazing mic locker. Go to a real studio and get the best there and take it home to work with on your DAW. If you cut to tape at a real studio and dump to a DAW you're going to be mighty impressed when you hear these drums compared to those others you cut with your band in your basement with your Behringer equipment.

The coach in me to you guys says, "I think everyone has to experience the real studio if you plan on calling yourself an engineer."

As for the disinterested engineer you work in a studio- you didn't do your homework if that's who did your record. It is a veiled process finding the right talent to make your record. Some major labels use www.rpmdirect.com. Some people use www.studiomenu.com others go directly to producer/engineer managers like Moir/Marie, Worldsend or Nettwerk. Sometimes it's a band manager that makes contact.

i respect real studios but i don't owe them anything nor do i have to thank them for anything. yes they have lost business because of DAW studios and DAW studios lose business to them too, it's competition, you don't see mozilla thanking microsoft. if you cut your teeth in a real studio then yea, you kind of owe something to them but i do not owe something to a big ass studio with a 2" 24 track otari and neve console and pro tools and radar rigs any more than i owe something to the rich guy down the street with the 4 car garage home with a swimming pool and the nice car and so on. i'm building my own studio to NOT have to pay studio prices, why would i invest all this money in studio stuff to just go track at a real studio and pay all that money anyway?

and even though real studios are losing some business due to smaller DAW studios i don't think they're in any serious danger any time soon, i don't know about you but i don't know many unsigned bands that can afford to track in studios with 2" 24 track and bad ass consoles, these people were already going to smaller studio's.

nigel godrich would not make as wonderful sounding recordings on a DAW, no, however would he also make such wonderful sounding recordings if he didn't have major label recording budgets to spend a lot of time in bad ass studio's? average joes are not going to make radiohead quality recordings because they don't have ANYWHERE near that budget, and you know what, if a band DOES have that kind of budget they're going to have someone like nigel godrich record them on equipement and in studios comprable to radioheads, smaller DAW studio's serve the rest of us who can't afford that stuff, yet still have every right to be able to record albums if we so choose.

personally i'd much rather record with nigel godrich on 2" tape and bad ass consoles, but i am not a rich man and do not have someone footing the bill for me. so instead i piece together studio gear for my own studio which i hope to eventually turn into a real facility, and while i respect the knowledge and opulence of real studio's, and while renting mic's from them would infact be very usefull, and i learned a decent ammount about recording from them (though i've actually learned at least as much if not more from messageboards and such believe it or not), they basicly exist to take business away from me as i exist to take it away from them. we're all fighting over the same scraps. only they have the upper hand.