OSA or any external pre questions - help!

[McPhaul]

I have just gotten my first "real" Pre. An OSA "C" model and have some questions about external pres in general.

I use an Aardvark Q10 for i/o and have to run the out from the OSA in through the Q10 at line level or below. I recorded electric guitar yesterday using first AT4050s then SM57s. I recorded with a pair of each mic so the track was the same, not replayed, and saw or heard no difference between the OSA track and the Q10 track. The wave form looked the same no matter how tight you zoomed and there was not a red hair of difference in the sound. I was not able to really crank the OSA as the output was very hot but I did get the thing about 75% opened up with the SM57 but I expected more. Every post I have read says that "Good" pres make mics sound better, almost like new mics, but this didn't do anything.

My question I guess is... Am I hearing the converters and not the pre? Does anyone have both that can give feedback of their experiances? Are the pres on the Q10 better than I thought?

I have been happy with the Q10 but wanted to upgrade thinking it could sound better. I have listened to all of the posts of multiple pres to hear the textures each gives but just don't hear any change in my systems sound by adding the OSA. Can anyone help me make this work? Please!

Thanks
Will

[I'm Painting Again]

Will give it some time and some indepth useage..sometimes it takes a while to realize what something does..listen to a dense multitrack project done only with the OSA and see if there is a difference from the Q10 only mixes..sometimes it takes a whole mix to hear a difference..I dont know either product personally..so I couldnt give you any opinion in that respect..

[McPhaul]

I did 3 guitar tracks a base line and a drum sample part to listen and couldn't tell one from the other. I guess I expected as must difference as what I have heard between some OSA, API, Mackie, and other samples I heard in trying to evaluate Pre-Purchase.

Thanks
Will

[thearnicasync]

something is probably goofy. like, maybe even the performance. what kind of guitar are you recording? is it super quiet?

i havn't heard the q10, but that osa should definitely feature a little high freq. roll-off (like way up there, 10k and beyond), and a little crunch. at least, that's what mine did.

and yeah, your 57 should sound way better. the first thing i noticed was that it was usable on something other than guitar cabinet or snare. and the snare actually sounded like a snare.

good luck,

kelly

[Slider]

I've always said pre's aren't really the magic boxes people make them out to be.
I have some nice pre's, and I love them and they are one more thing that gets me closer to my goal, but I think most people expect some magic transformation of their recordings. Like the recording will suddenly be "pro".

I've made recordings I love on crap gear, and recordings that don't sound all that great on the most amazing discrete vintage neve.
There are so many variables in recording that come into play.

A good engineer\producer will make a mackie or an API sound great, that's the sad truth.
No gear is magic.
It will help.
But your recording will still be your recording in the end.
I'll probably get my head bit off, but that's what I believe.

[Nathan Eldred]

Hi Will,

Where was the gain setting specifically on the OSA? If it was in the lower regions, below 40db, the preamp will stay very clean. Part of the beauty of this type of design is that you have the ability to saturate the transformer to find a really nice sweet spot on where the preamp shines nicely. Try getting the input to sit around 12-2 o'clock, adjusting your output accordingly. If that's still too hot, don't be afraid to use the 20db pad, it won't effect the tone drastically, it's just a simple resistor. Then you can push the input even harder if you like.

If your converters are set too hot, it can prevent you from having the ability to push the preamp also. You'll need to consult the Aardvark manual for where they are at. This is very important. Class A and Class A/B, transformer coupled preamps like to sit at a certain place in their operating window so to speak, and what you are doing here is just using the converter for clean makeup gain...so 60% of your gain is derived from that instead of your preamps, not really the right way to do things. Also the Aardvark converters could be homogenizing things greatly along with your speakers, making things sound generally the same. I see this happen with cheaper gear. Are you physically switching the microphone cable to make sure it's not the same preamp both times? Regardless, the wave forms shouldn't look identical and they shouldn't sound identical (it sounds improbable)...they should sound quite different in general. Maybe you could take some detailed pics of your setup, front and back of the preamp during the A/B test.

[McPhaul]

Hey Nathan,

On the 4050s the pre was set very low even with the pad on and the Aardvark line in at it's lowest setting the signal was hot. I changed to SM57s and that lowered the signal to where I could crank the input to around 50-55 and still no audible change in the two recordings.

The way I recorded these was to set up two of mics (2-57s or 2-4050s) into two channels and recorded the same passage, one channel through the OSA and one channel straight into the Q10. There was a VERY slight change in the waveforms and almost no audibal change.

I took everything down this morning so I can't duplicate the test this evening, but they say Atlanta is ging to have an ice storm this weekend and I should be able to test again and take pics for you.

[SeventhCircle]

What are you monitoring through? It's possible the rest of your signal chain is preventing you hearing a significant difference. You may also want to try a phase cancellation test in your DAW to uncover the real difference between the two amps.

[McPhaul]

What are you monitoring through? It's possible the rest of your signal chain is preventing you hearing a significant difference. You may also want to try a phase cancellation test in your DAW to uncover the real difference between the two amps.

Event TR8s. Not the best but I was able to hear differences in the samples from various pres I downloaded prior to purchasing the pre. The samples I'm talking about were from some of the Listening Room stuff I think and were fairly controlled. (same source, same mic, same everything but pre)

I didn't think about phase reversal. I'll take a look.

[McPhaul]

Please don't take any of this as a slam on OSA. I did not expect or want the two to sound so similar and would really llike to find out if I'm doing something wrong. I have never had to use Balanced 1/4" before and don't know if I have something set up wrong. A post on another site recomended that I try the 1/4" effect return as my input not the mic / line input. That will bypass the Q10 pres but I don't have the gear to set that up right now.

This is what I got yesterday. I didn't want to post these as the playing is not that good and the guitar sound was not the best. I just wanted to hear if the pre changed the tone at all so I did not really work on the starting point.

First is the OSAhttp://webpages.charter.net/mcphaul/OSA ... 20test.mp3

Then the Q10 http://webpages.charter.net/mcphaul/Q10 ... 20test.mp3

I'll try some more in the morning and maybe repost then.

Thanks
Will

[Slider]

Distorted guitar can be misleading in checking pre's against each other.
Try a single mono drum room mic.
I always hear crazy differences in preamps when I switch the room mics between different ones.
Acoustic guitar and singing will also give you some better material to hear a difference.

20/20's are not the greatest for hearing differences between two pre's.
I know because they are my home computer speakers.
Things I don't notice at home sound obvious when I listen at the studio.

[McPhaul]

Distorted guitar can be misleading in checking pre's against each other.
Try a single mono drum room mic.
I always hear crazy differences in preamps when I switch the room mics between different ones.
Acoustic guitar and singing will also give you some better material to hear a difference.

20/20's are not the greatest for hearing differences between two pre's.
I know because they are my home computer speakers.
Things I don't notice at home sound obvious when I listen at the studio.

Thanks I'll try some other sources in the morning. I don't have a durm kit set up right now. Would just a snare work? I could stick 2 SM57s up like before. Pass on trough each pre.

[New Orleans Steve]

McPhaul:
On more time: You were able to hear a marked diference in the demo situation?

Steve

[McPhaul]

McPhaul:
On more time: You were able to hear a marked diference in the demo situation?

Steve

On the samples I downloaded Yes on the stuff I recorded No.

I'm sure I just need to get used to the OSA pre and learn where it shines. I think I may have been expecting too much, I was expecting the sound difference to be like two different mics. I have only gotten a few minutes here and there this morning to start setting up and have not been able to do any more recording, but I hope to later today.

[Nathan Eldred]

would really llike to find out if I'm doing something wrong. I have never had to use Balanced 1/4" before and don't know if I have something set up wrong. A post on another site recomended that I try the 1/4" effect return as my input not the mic / line input. That will bypass the Q10 pres but I don't have the gear to set that up right now.

Will, what are you using the 1/4" input for? It should have nothing to do with a microphone. Are you talking about on the OSA or on the Aardvark? I'm guessing the Aardvark. It looks like there are a lot of factors going on that are preventing you from hearing a difference, not to mention that single sources are a bad way to see how things are going to go in a mix and do true comparisons. It would be a really good idea, as a test, to record a mono drum kit (not just snare), bass, guitar, some vocals, maybe some keys with both preamps, using the same mics on each source, unplug and plug in the mics accordingly. Match the levels and then listen to it in a good mix setting. Going back through a padded input of the Aardvark is making everything sound more like the Aardvark too...i.e. Aardvark preamp to Aardvark line input versus OSA preamp through padded Aardvark mic input (that's essentially all it is apparently, it sounds like you are going through a lot of extra circuitry). You need to find the most direct path to the A/D converter. Plus the conversion in general and speakers are not going to be very revealing. Higher quality preamps start to shine on the mixdown, things get easier to put together at that time. And they show their true colors when push comes to shove. It's like having a perfectly flat road where the economy car and 4WD truck will perform pretty equally. But once off roading and tough terrain are called for (highly dynamic source, more headroom is needed, during mix, etc, etc) then the 'truck' (better preamp) is going to do the job better.