Pacific Pro Audio Ribbon Group Buy Instructions

general questions, comments and ideas about recording, audio, music, etc.
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Re: Pacific Pro Audio Ribbon Group Buy Instructions

Post by junkstar » Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:28 pm

I only see one of the mics there.

If you go back to page one of this thread, you can see the 4 and link to a photo of the 2. The grilles look very similar to me.

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Re: Pacific Pro Audio Ribbon Group Buy Instructions

Post by Madguitrst » Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:35 pm

Micheal Jolly.....thank you for the awesome post!!!!!
I really appreciate you taking the time to explain your thoughts and findings.

In any case, I'll be happy with which ever mics we get.

After that, we need to get some $200 channels of Neve and API cloned preamps! :D

All in say AYE!!! (thanks for the correction....I couldn't think of that to save my life last night)
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Best pic of HRM-2

Post by MichaelJoly » Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:41 pm

Take a look at the link below to a 360 degree zoomable photo of the HRM-2 badged as a T. Bone. This is a very different grill than a simple cylinder. The angle of the taper is quite pronounced - much more visable than the pic link to in the first page of this thread.

http://www.dancetech.com/aa_dt_new/shop ... pe=MI#fpix

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Re: Pacific Pro Audio Ribbon Group Buy Instructions

Post by junkstar » Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:01 pm

Ahh, I see now. The T-Bone has the same grille style as that of the 2, the 4 does not have the flat taper, and is more rounded. Now I see... Thanks.

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Re: Pacific Pro Audio Ribbon Group Buy Instructions

Post by tommypiper » Thu Feb 10, 2005 5:12 pm

Thanks, Michael! I'm impressed with your calm and careful replies and explanations and courtesy. It goes a long way. Indeed, so what we know of the HRM-2 implies it to be the best and safest choice.

Several reviews I've read have indicated the Nady has an upper mid peak at (about 2k?) which has annoyed some users and limited its application, and has also prevented it from being classed as a really good mic. This could be due to its cylindrical grill... testing would be required to know, but this discussion points to a link between frequency response and grill shape.

If our HRM-2 mics with the "corrected" / tapered grill changes this response for the better, then from all reports we have a very good mic on our hands indeed -- regardless of price.

I've read somewhere recently that the sound of a mic is due mostly to the shape of its grill. This is more important than the capsule, electronics, or transformer in shaping the sound of a microphone, apparently.

EDIT: Sorry guys, I mispoke. See later post. It was in another context of modding mics and in that context grill was #1. In the above context I believe grill has the second most influence, after capsule...

cheers all.
Last edited by tommypiper on Fri Feb 11, 2005 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pacific Pro Audio Ribbon Group Buy Instructions

Post by ubertar » Thu Feb 10, 2005 5:17 pm

tommypiper wrote:I've read somewhere recently that the sound of a mic is due mostly to the shape of its grill. This is more important than the diaphram, capsule, electronics, or transformer in shaping the sound of a microphone, apparently.
Where did you read that? Sounds a bit farfetched to me.
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Re: Pacific Pro Audio Ribbon Group Buy Instructions

Post by ubertar » Thu Feb 10, 2005 5:19 pm

Well, more than a bit, but I was being polite. :D
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Re: Pacific Pro Audio Ribbon Group Buy Instructions

Post by tommypiper » Thu Feb 10, 2005 9:39 pm

I've been trying to find it for you. I think it was an online discussion about tube mics and transformers in tube mics, and swapping different tubes and other mods. I believe the remark was that, despite all the mods, no single mod would change the charachter of the mic as much as changing the grill. Maybe someone else will remember the discussion and can find it for you.

cheers.

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Re: Pacific Pro Audio Ribbon Group Buy Instructions

Post by Madguitrst » Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:27 pm

Tommypiper mentioned:
I've read somewhere recently that the sound of a mic is due mostly to the shape of its grill. This is more important than the diaphram, capsule, electronics, or transformer in shaping the sound of a microphone, apparently.
So, according that that theory, this mic:
Image

should sound better than this mic:
Image

and this one too:
Image

:idea: Maybe I should buy a bunch and rebadge them as Heyneyfuckens. :shock:
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Re: Pacific Pro Audio Ribbon Group Buy Instructions

Post by joelpatterson » Fri Feb 11, 2005 2:26 am

Well then it seems obvious that the best mic WOULD NOT HAVE A GRILL and that we should take them all off.
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Re: Pacific Pro Audio Ribbon Group Buy Instructions

Post by Greg Dixon » Fri Feb 11, 2005 4:20 am

joelpatterson wrote:Well then it seems obvious that the best mic WOULD NOT HAVE A GRILL and that we should take them all off.
That's probably true. The grill is just there to protect the capsule.

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Re: Pacific Pro Audio Ribbon Group Buy Instructions

Post by MichaelJoly » Fri Feb 11, 2005 4:56 am

Ribbon mic restorer Stephen Sank has said:

"The most ideal ribbon mics have been those with as little solid structure as possible, with the prime example being the RCA SPX-2 lab reference mic, which had just a small motor suspended in the center of a large cloth globe".

Picture here: http://www.thuntek.net/~bk11/bk11.htm

On another note, we have to be careful about over simplifying. While the SE2500 above has a tapered grille, it is constructed of very close weave wire mesh and has very little open area. This mic will produce a great deal more standing waves than the VM-1 which has a very open weave wire mesh.

And of course there are going to be big differences in capsules and electronics between low end and high end mics. But once the designer has settled on the best capsule and circuit topology that will hit the desired price point the issue really boils down to minimizing reflections (by using open weave mesh) then distributing the remaining reflections across the HF spectrum by using 3 dimensional tapered geometry. Well, that is if the design goal is clear and open top end sound - but a quick look at the gear catalogs show us that the design goal of many low end mics appears to be to look as much like a U47 as possible.

Condenser microphone are much more subject to electromagnetic interference than ribbon mics and thus the need for more electromagnetic shielding. But as you see from the pics above mic designers play with the balance between maximum electromagnetic shielding (close weave) and maximum open area for reduced standing waves (loose weave).

In another thread here, Wild Bill was kind enough to write a review of his experiences with the Nady branded ribbon mic complete with pictures of the grille construction and recording samples. Great thread, worth the time to read. Anyway, it appears that the Nady ribbon has two layers of wire mesh, then a silk layer and finally a perforated metal layer in front of the ribbon.

My conjecture is that the designers of the RSM-2 / 4 mics have chosen to put a lot of wind blast protection into the mic in order to err on the side of ribbon saftey as opposed to favoring a more open grille design. This is a low end ribbon mic after all that will find its way into the hands of many less-than-experienced recordists. Robust ribbon protection is a good design objective in this case. For my own use, I'm planning on pulling out as much of that extra stuff as I can ;)

This is slightly off-topic of ribbon mics, but on the subject of capsule/grille/electronics interplay Klaus Heine has written (source: old USENET post): "...tubes have less to do with it than you think...most of the sound is from the capsule, followed by the grille shape, then the output transformer. The tube is dead last".

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Re: Pacific Pro Audio Ribbon Group Buy Instructions

Post by lifeintime » Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:18 am

So, the first thing to do to is mod the grille?

What Michael says certainly makes scientific sense. I wonder how much the grille design contributes to the famous "Neumann Hump" on a U87.

Maybe it's time for a seperate thread.
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Re: Pacific Pro Audio Ribbon Group Buy Instructions

Post by Madguitrst » Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:20 am

Again Michael, very ninformative.

I had two B Stock Baby Bottles for testing.
Everything was the same excpet for the openings on the grill and the blast protection. One had much wider oepnings and little protection, the other, closest to what they are using for the A stcok mics were tighter and more protection.

The open grill sounded like a more open mic.
It's off axis response was much more forgiving.
The problem is that it was too sensitive to wind, It always seemed like it was about to get blown apart. i even used a pop filter using it in fron to guitars.

The point?" The mesh can make a big difference.
I've taken the screen off of my CAD E-200 and used it that way

By the way, lollipop mikes seem to be a good shape.
What do you think about these Michael?
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Re: Pacific Pro Audio Ribbon Group Buy Instructions

Post by X-ian » Fri Feb 11, 2005 9:09 am

Has anyone recieved a confirmation E-mail yet? I'm still waiting, I hope Garth got my order. I'm wondering if it's time to start calling.
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