The Value in Turd Polishing

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Re: The Value in Turd Polishing

Post by Professor » Thu Feb 03, 2005 1:59 am

I might catch some rotten tomatoes for this one, but I'm going with the first response that popped into my head...

Why are you recording?

And I don't mean that in a condescending way, in fact it is a question I ask of every single person that comes to me looking to record.
"Why?"
What is it that you hope to gain from the recording?
Since I work at an institution of higher learning, there are many folks that are 'just looking for the experience'. But even within that seemingly altruistic reason, they are also often thinking that they will make an album to sell, or they will make a demo to get gigs, or whatever. They very rarely just want to experience a recording studio session.

So what about you?
You've been recording for months. Everbody is frustrated. People are arguing. You've lost a drummer.
For what?
When the project is "finished" what the hell will that mean? Are you going to make a thousand copies to sell at shows? Will the new drummer want to sell CDs that contain someone else's work? If the recording sounds like a polished turd, is that what you want people to hear? Is that how you want them to view the band? And for that matter, will it really 'sound' like the band does now, or will it sound like that shitty band you were playing with a year ago?

And really, don't get me wrong on this one, I am not trying to discourage you from recording, from playing, and certainly not from learning. Hell, I don't even know how you sound. But I am curious to know what will happen with the recording when it's done.
Will it go to record labels in search of a deal?
Will it go to clubs in search of a gig?
Will it be sold to members of the audience as a way to bring a little piece of the band home with them after the show?

It's true that you can continue working, get the mix to the best point you can, and call it done. But you can also walk away and start over.
And the best thing is that each option is just as educational. Actually, I take that back, I bet walking away would be more educational - because it will realign the focus of the band, and get everyone off of the bad investment. And that's a way to think of it - a bad investment. You bought into the stock, the price went down, and you decided to buy some more at the 'bargain' price, but it just kept going down... and down... and down... until you've arrived at a point of decision: why not just sell the stock, take the remaining money and the expensive lesson, and reinvest in something that will win back the money.
What you do next is entirely up to you and the band. You could try again to do it yourselves, prehaps with astoundingly better results now that you've gained so much experience. You might go to someone else and have them handle the whole project. You might track somewhere and mix at home. You might track at home and let someone else mix. Either way, you'll likely reassess why you are recording at all - what's the final product supposed to be, and what are we going to do with it?
Then you'll be able to go do it - and take pride in the product.

-Jeremy

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Re: The Value in Turd Polishing

Post by wedge » Thu Feb 03, 2005 9:02 am

Professor...

I've gotten to the point where I'd love for the band to start anew, this time with proper engineering, in a good sounding room, et. al., but I know my mates, and I'm the only one who's interested enough in the art of recording to know how much better it would sound. Should I suggest this, I would be met with wide-eyed disbelief and awkward silence, followed by heavy sighs, would be my guess. It would be the lobbying effort of a lifetime, and I'm not sure I want to embark upon that path, then start from scratch again with recording. It might actually kill the band, I would tend to worry...

You're right. The purpose and goals of the CD sets the stage. I envision it as a business card of sorts to open doors for the band, of any kind: for songwriting, label shopping, publishing rights, getting gigs, keeping momentum, etc. For this, I can see it functioning. Honestly, I'm torn betwwen thinking it'll be viewed as a killer lo-fi effort, or a scattered piece o'shite. One more reason I guess not to mix your own stuff...

Also, I am a perfectionist, too, which has been driving me batty -- not knowing when to let mixes go -- plus, as a previous poster said, I learned my poor engineering habits by slapping any old mic in front of whatever, from my days using my lovely cassette machines. Bitter-sweet irony...

So, the reason I've been recording is as a songwriter, wanting to put down my stuff and listen to it. I love that. I realize now, though, that I, and the band, in future need to leave the engineering to people who're genuinely good at it. I'm not, and I've got way too much to learn to catch up anytime soon. I seem to be okay at mixing, but really I'm a musician who needs to leave the heavy studio-lifting to the (affordable) pros. And although it may have come waaaaaaaaaaay too late in the process (I'm 42, straight off'a 25), I'm much more relaxed about the whole music & recordng thing since coming to this stark realization...

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Re: The Value in Turd Polishing

Post by Professor » Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:45 pm

I definitely understand the difficulty you would face negotiating with the band. That's actually another lesser-known beauty of having a neutral third party. When someone else is there to take the abuse after saying 'this sucks, you guys have to try again' it does save a lot of in-fighting among the band.
Another thing that many bands do when diving in to recording is decide on the full number of songs they 'need' on the album, and record exactly that many. With that process, there is no room to cut out the worst tracks.
I always suggest to bands that if they want a 4-song demo, we need to record 5 songs, and when everything is done, we will pick one to cut. Naturally, they show up at the session and have already decided which of the 5 is going to be cut later. That's not quite the point, and I explain that if they already know we won't use then there is no point in recording it. But the point of recording more than you need so you can choose the best and drop the worst later is a very important concept.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that your band recorded upwards of 12, maybe 15 or even more songs for this album project. But the purpose is as a business card! A business card and a r?sum? are two very different animals. And that is the angle you can take to cut your losses on the current recordings and move on.
Select the three best songs that represent you guys LIVE with the CURRENT band members. Get the mixes to a reasonable state by Sunday night, and call that your LIVE DEMO for getting gigs, and start burning them on Monday.
Then next week, select the three best tracks that represent the talented songwriters and creative production. Some of these may or may not be the same tracks. Naturally, for produced work, the band members don't matter as much. Get the mixes into an acceptable state by the end of next week! That will be your LABEL DEMO for labels, publishing, etc.
If the guys whine and cry about having an album to sell, then put the two 3-song demos together and sell them as a $5 EP at your shows.

And that's it. Then hang up ALL of the other tracks. Then you've not 'wasted' the recordings, but you're also not damaging yourselves by releasing crap. You've cut your losses, returned a little of the investment, pleased the band to some extent, and you can MOVE ON.

And I very intentionally gave you those very steep deadlines. Those deadlines are important - that is a beautiful thing about working in a paying studio environment - eventually the time runs out and the project MUST be done.

I really should look it up to see who said this quote because I use it all the time. Either Beethoven or Mozart once said, "there is no greater inspiration than a deadline."
Choose your deadline, and marvel at the sudden burst of inspiration.

-Jeremy

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Re: The Value in Turd Polishing

Post by Rick Hunter » Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:52 pm

man, what a great post Jeremy.

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Re: The Value in Turd Polishing

Post by wedge » Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:25 pm

Professor wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that your band recorded upwards of 12, maybe 15 or even more songs for this album project.
It's always a bit unnerving when someone can suss you out with pin-point accuracy from a distance. Try 18 to 20 songs. I realize that the final count will be fewer, but we're songwriters before we're anything, and these are our babies. It's going to be a painful culling process. I appreciate your advice, none the less, because it's coming from an experienced perspective.
Professor wrote:But the purpose is as a business card!
Business Card was an unfortunate turn of phrase. What I want to use the CD for is to prove to the universe that we can write great songs and do cool and interesting arrangements of said songs, however self-delusional that may be. So, "press kit", with a yet-to-be-designed website (I do websites) backing it up, is the more proper term. Promotional Tool?

I'm hoping for one of two things: That it turns out better than expected, and we can, in fact, use it as a promotional tool, proudly; or that: Once done, if it's not up to snuff, that it's clear to all involved and we can, as you said, move on...

By the way, even though I'm using business jargon that makes me sound like a suit, I'm an artist from stem to stern, and the ART of this project is extremely important to me. In my wildest dreams, this'll turn out to be something quite special, if only just to me and my bandmates & friends...

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Re: The Value in Turd Polishing

Post by Professor » Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:22 pm

Funny, I originally typed 17, and then backed it down to give you the benefit of the doubt.

I'll stand by my belief that 3 or 4 songs that really blow away the listener makes for a great press kit. While I certainly do tend to be a bit verbose in my messageboard posts, I also encourage quick and concise delivery of a sales pitch. Nobody wants to spend 74 minutes listening to all of your ideas. It's overkill, and it risks boring the listener. And if the mixes get progressively worse as we work through the album, it only leaves them with a poor impression.
Get in, get out, and leave them wanting more. Then maybe they'll call you to ask for more.
Like I said, it's a great idea to change up the demos that are used for live vs. label publicity. Hell, if you don't hear anything after sending a press kit out, then try again a couple months later with a different package and different tracks.

And yeah, I know they are your babies. Don't you want to send them off in their Sunday best? Raise them with good values? Put them through an ivy league school? Send them off into the world with the best damn start and every advantage to insure them a long and fruitful life?

-J

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Re: The Value in Turd Polishing

Post by soundguy » Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:34 pm

hey wedge-

have you ever hard a record called Monster Magnet "tab....25"?

This was a record recorded in someone's basement by a band doing the best they could do with what they had at the time. By all the first hand accounts I could inquire about, nobody is particularly ecstatic with the sonic results of that record but holy fucking hell if that record doesnt absolutely kick complete ass. If dave woke up one morning and had a turd polishing pep talk, that wouldnt have suprised me, but my god that record is just an incredible contribution to humanity despite its shortcomings. Awesome, awesome, awesome, awesome, awesome, awesome. When we are all dead and people talk about the 90's, the people that really knew where it was at are gonna be talking about this record. Nobody could ever fuck with dave wyndorf simply because he made that record and really changed the world for a lot of us, he knows he's the most rightous dude because of that record (not because it sounds so awesome) and all is well, forget about the rest of the mm catalog. Just make a good record, its really not hard once you get your head on right. As far as tab goes, probably the only good thing about doing lots of drugs, it doesnt allow you to overthink things...

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Re: The Value in Turd Polishing

Post by Rigsby » Fri Feb 04, 2005 3:57 am

soundguy wrote:hey wedge-

have you ever hard a record called Monster Magnet "tab....25"?

This was a record recorded in someone's basement by a band doing the best they could do with what they had at the time. By all the first hand accounts I could inquire about, nobody is particularly ecstatic with the sonic results of that record but holy fucking hell if that record doesnt absolutely kick complete ass. If dave woke up one morning and had a turd polishing pep talk, that wouldnt have suprised me, but my god that record is just an incredible contribution to humanity despite its shortcomings. Awesome, awesome, awesome, awesome, awesome, awesome. When we are all dead and people talk about the 90's, the people that really knew where it was at are gonna be talking about this record. Nobody could ever fuck with dave wyndorf simply because he made that record and really changed the world for a lot of us, he knows he's the most rightous dude because of that record (not because it sounds so awesome) and all is well, forget about the rest of the mm catalog. Just make a good record, its really not hard once you get your head on right. As far as tab goes, probably the only good thing about doing lots of drugs, it doesnt allow you to overthink things...

dave
That really is one of my favourite records ever, and it's a good case in point (so is forget the rest of the catalogue, but still), that record has an awesome feeling about it and that comes right across, production is neither here nor there with that. There's countless other groups who's 'poor' production hasn't got in the way of things either.

Incidentially one of my groups got all of it's gigs from a rehearsal tape recorded to MD and we never went short of places to play and interest, the only lack of interest it turned out was from us as a group. In these times if you're good, you'll stand out.
The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away.

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Re: The Value in Turd Polishing

Post by wedge » Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:08 am

soundguy wrote:hey wedge-

have you ever hard a record called Monster Magnet "tab....25"?
I'm doing some internet research as we speak... Sounds very interesting... I love psychadelia. Probably have to order it off the internet?

Professor...

We've kinda painted ourselves into a corner, in my opinion, because every one of our songs is quite distinct from the other, genre-wise, so I'm worried that if we chose the best four, there'd be a country tune, a rock tune, a "Pink Floyd" tune, and a "Beatles" tune. The danger being, in these days of bands with SOUNDS, that the listener will come away thinking, "What the fuck do I make of these guys?!? They have no SOUND!" My reasoning is, if you have a full-sized CD full of stylisticly eclectic tunes, then it's more clear to the listener that that's the "sound" of the band; it's the artistic intention of the project, and thus the weakness becomes a strength that sets us apart...

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Re: The Value in Turd Polishing

Post by Professor » Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:29 pm

My reasoning is, if you have a full-sized CD full of stylisticly eclectic tunes, then it's more clear to the listener that that's the "sound" of the band; it's the artistic intention of the project, and thus the weakness becomes a strength that sets us apart...
So four tunes that all sound different will confuse someone while 16 tunes that all sound different are going to make them realize you guys are just eclectic? If you're a wedding band, then that's great, but if you are trying to get the attention of a promoter or label are they even going to listen to your 74-minute magnum opus?
Why not play the 'radio airplay' game and decide what single track best represents the band and would be worth releasing as a single. And no, you can not give the answer, 'well sometimes we play this, and sometimes we play that'. That answer doesn't cut it because it doesn't get you anywhere. Everyone in the band has to give ONE song that is the most representative song for the band.
Chances are you will get two or three responses, and at worst you'll get one from each player. Great, take all those songs and call that a demo. If you have some consensus on one particular tune being the strongest of that bunch, then you know what track goes first.

Every other excuse you could possibly come up with will be nothing more than spinning your tires in the mud, wondering why you're not moving. There's this delightful old phrase you might have heard before:
Shit or get off the pot.
That's it, man. You said it yourself, you are polishing turds. If the best songs are one country, one rock, one Floyd and one Beatles, then so be it. Pick which ones best represent the band and put that first. If you're afraid people will classify you as 'country' then leave that track out. Three tracks, with a "rock", "Floyd" and "Beatles" could be fairly consistent and provide some deifintion of the band, and if the listener likes what they hear, they can contact you for more.
Hell, even if there are 16 tracks on the album, they might still listen to the first four and decide you are too confused. If they're not going to like, then they're not going to like you quickly - they don't need 16 songs to decide. And if the first 2 don't convince them, do you think they are going to listen through 14 more? And if they like the first 2, do you want to make them hate you with 14 more? Ah, but if the first two really grab them, then have two more to close the deal and then stop and leave them WANTING more. Then they have no choice but to call.

Sorry for the rant, but it seems like the more I read, the more I'm seeing that this has nothing at all to do with wondering if it is worth polishing up these turds. Seems this has everything to do with being afraid of taking the next step and actually putting the products in people's hands.
"Perfection" is an excuse. "Poor quality" is an excuse. "Needing to re-record" is an excuse. "Too many styles" is an excuse.
Make a deadline, pick four tracks and put them into someone's hands THIS WEEK.
And your girlfriend or mother doesn't count. Put the demo into someone's hands at a club by this time next week. This isn't a matter of recording quality or musical integrity, it is a question of breaking through a protective shell, no longer hiding, and getting your music out there. Yes, some people will absolutely hate it, and that will make you feel absolutely awful. But some people will love it, and those are the people that matter.
Take a shit. Take a really big, huge, enormous shit. The kind that makes you run into the hall to tell the other guys to come check it out.
Or get off the pot and quit asking for advice that you aren't going to follow.

-Jeremy

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Re: The Value in Turd Polishing

Post by wedge » Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:25 pm

Professor wrote: Or get off the pot and quit asking for advice that you aren't going to follow.

-Jeremy
For the record, I started this thread with a statement (trying to mix with crappy tracks has taught me fuckloads), not a question. In fact, I'm not sure I've asked for anything, advice included. I've just been responding to your ever-more incisive, disturbingly on-the-point remarks... I'll consider your input. You might wanna consider studying psychotherapy. You seem to have a gift! :wink:

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Re: The Value in Turd Polishing

Post by trianglelines » Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:37 pm

I did EXACTLY what you are planning to do... I combined three session, two drummers and mixes I didn't especially like by a producer who couldn't get it and three songs by a really good engineer who couldn't keep the kick out of the bass guitar frequencies. I sequenced and mastered them and then shelved the CD.

Less is more.

Go do your three best songs the right way, and please do it soon.

(I discovered my truly BEST songs got a second -- sometimes third -- chance at life later and I was glad I recorded them without excuses -- good songs by good songwriters are like that -- timeless)

No one is going to understand your struggle, either they will respond to your songs or they won't. Make sure those songs REPRESENT,

All the best from someone who has been there.

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Re: The Value in Turd Polishing

Post by @?,*???&? » Sat Feb 05, 2005 9:20 pm

wedge wrote:I've in the midst of a major turd-polishing mixing project -- that just happens to be my own band -- and even though frustration levels are exceedingly high, what with all of the eq'ing and plugins and things just not sitting right, I've come to realize that I've learned more about the value of recording everything correctly, from the outset, by having to haggle with my poorly produced tracks (for the most part) than I would have otherwise. I've read it a million times on this board, about how important it is to get great sounds going in, and that if you do, mixing can be as simple as volume levels and panning. With these tracks, I'm faced with three separate home studios, two different drummers, and all engineered by amateurs. I think the tunes are great and the vibe is happening, so initially I was searching for an audio holy grail that would pull the whole thing together as a sonic unit, but it hit me 'tween the eyes but days ago that it'll never have that sense about it, and the only thing that would give it that sense would be to re-record the whole thing in a good sounding studio with engineers who know what the fuck they're doing. Man, what a great record we could make if we did that. Anyway, just wanted to point out that turd polishing actually has benefits; at least for me it's been an eye-opening learning experience, to say the least...
One could always pay an objective 'professional' to wade through the tracks...

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Re: The Value in Turd Polishing

Post by Professor » Sun Feb 06, 2005 12:08 am

wedge wrote: For the record, I started this thread with a statement (trying to mix with crappy tracks has taught me fuckloads), not a question. In fact, I'm not sure I've asked for anything, advice included. I've just been responding to your ever-more incisive, disturbingly on-the-point remarks... I'll consider your input. You might wanna consider studying psychotherapy. You seem to have a gift! :wink:
That was fully intended to egg you on, get you pissed, and make you want to finish the work - hopefully it worked. I would do nothing less for a friend or struggling student.
I don't know that recording is ever that far from psychotherapy. Trying to get the players to both relax and perform their best. Wroking around and over and through the egos and the power trips and the defeatist who is 'just never good enough'.
I suppose it doesn't hurt that I listen to Dr. Laura in the car either. What I picked up on in half a dozen messages over several days, she pulls off in two minutes on the phone while on live talk radio with 20 million listeners.

Either way, get to work. :D

-J

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Re: The Value in Turd Polishing

Post by wedge » Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:17 am

Jeff Robinson wrote:
One could always pay an objective 'professional' to wade through the tracks...
Jeff...

We did just that, and, ironicly enough, the professional fired us (so to speak) when he realized, after mixing six songs, that his style of mixing -- all protools, in the box, loads o'plug-ins -- wasn't right for our style of music. He told us, and I agreed, that we needed to bring the tracks out of the box and through a board, to help create a more appropriate sound for our stuff. Unfortunately, he wan't outfitted to do that, having only a protools hd system. Interestingly enough, the whole experience prompted him to buy a board, but by then we'd moved on.

On the whole, we weren't that happy with his mixes, anyway. He's a radio-rock kinda mixer (and very good at it, I might add), and he loaded each track with compression to acheive that effect. At first listen it sounded good, but after repeated listening, we realized that there were no dynamics anymore -- just a one-dimensional sheen, like sonic toothpaste being squeezed evenly from it's tube. Our stuff is deeply informed by 50's, 60's & alt-90's era stuff, and that treatment -- while seemingly cool at first -- just wasn't right. Prompted by other band members who liked some of my early attempts at mixing, I decided to take the task on again, but this time with an 8 track interface (digi001) and an M8 to run the tracks through. I definitely get a better, tighter bottom end through this setup, but there seems to be some odd hi-mids that tend to collect on the vocal tracks, that the board seems to add. I'm experimenting with a de-esser as we speak...

Jeremy...

I took you comments for the egging on that they were intended as, and I appreciate that. Hopefully in about a month's time, I'll have a finished, mastered CD to share with tapeop, and you can hear what I've been tripping over, for better or for worse...

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