Good not-too-flat monitors?

[tommywenz]

Hi I have been lurking for a while, usually hang out at HC, but recently decided to check out this board. Looks like less bull and a lot of cool info, so I decided to register. So howdy all.
Can someone help point me to some monitors? I recently decided to get more into recording since finding people in my age bracket that can consistently commit to practicing has turned into a frustrating ordeal to say the least. So I'm putting together a small studio in my house to record cheap demos for local bands and do my own projects.
I bought some Tannoy PBM 6.5 II's a few years back when they first came out and have done a few things with them but I have never come to grips with them. I have recently been spending a lot of time archiving some old deteriorating Adats by mixing down to CD, trying to spend as much time with the monitors as I can to try to get at least a little confident before I start bringing people in. I pop a mix into my car stereo and the bottom is this big boomy unfocused mess (not a complete disaster, but definitely a little out of control), and I just don't hear it on the Tannoys-at all.
I know monitors are suppose to be flat, but shit these things are beyond flat. Good mid range, but the bottom and top are near non-existent. I know this is typical of pretty much all purpose built near fields, but is there anything out there that is a little closer to home speakers with a slightly boosted low and high end? I'm having a really hard time trying to adjust frequencies that just aren't there.
The Tannoys are rear ported, if I stand back about 10-15 feet I can hear the bass a bit better. Would front ported speakers make a difference?
I've come off the wall a couple of feet, but space is a little tight. I'm using mopads and have a good triangle that's maybe a little shy of 5 ft. Any suggestions?

[spankenstein]

Bass traps. I'd had this problem as well and recently took bundles of R-19 insulation as a test, these are still highly compressed in the bag. And put them in the corners around my mix area and it really brought the low end out.

[tommywenz]

I don't see how bass traps would come into play all that much with near- fields? With speakers at close range at ear level, the room doesn't come into play hardly at all and you are looking to get the sounds just from the speakers themselves, correct (I know I know...generally speaking)? I'm not in a small room, it's basically at one side of my open 900 sq ft finished basement. My regular stereo speakers are too bassy in comparison.

[Rolsen]

Oh, yeah..... your room contributes to your interpretation of your near-fields - even if they're only 2 inches from your head. Use the search function on this board and use keywords like "bass trap" "bass treatment" "room treatment." Should be an ocean of info for you. Sometimes, I'll slice off guitar frequencies below 100 hz out of habit - if you don't need that low end information on an instrument, get rid of it! Helps with the muck.

[dynomike]

When you walk around the room, does the bass change at all? If you move the monitors to a different spot in the room, does the bass change at all?

If so you need bass traps. They do make a difference with near fields. Building some for myself has made a HUGE difference in how my mixes translate. Its nearly perfect every time now, but that also comes with getting to know your monitors.

I actually use home speakers as monitors, which work great, as long as you have a good clean and powerful amp. I use Boston Acoustics CR8 (7" woofer, 125 watts/side) passive "home" speakers with a NAD 2200 amp (which is ridiculously powerful). They are really cheap, used at least, and are relatively flat with a slight bump around 80 hz. Maybe this is what you're looking for. With a good amp, they have awesome, clean and fast transients and decent imaging. I'd say the imaging is the weak point, but not a huge issue.

You can see some pictures of the bass traps on my walls: www.mikekuehn.ca/recording.htm

For bass trap info, you really want to check out Ethan Winer's site: www.ethanwiner.com or www.realtraps.com

Mike

[Slider]

Getting used to small nearfields is hard when you grow up listening to car stereo's and boom boxes with super bass and loudness.

I like the Mackie monitors because they are a bit more hyped on top and bottom. I'm very comfortable on them.
I did so many NS-10 mixes that were muddy and boxy when I first started out.
I still take things out to my car to see if I'm pushing the low end too much.
The car is the true real world test for me.

I like a mix to sound right in the car and the boombox before it's mastered, that way they don't #1-think I suck at mixing and #2-end up EQ'ing the hell out of it to fix it.

[Mr. Dipity]

The car is the true real world test for me.

I'm going to make some convolutions signatures of my car stereo sometime, so I don't have to burn stuff and go downstairs.

[MT]

I'm going to make some convolutions signatures of my car stereo sometime, so I don't have to burn stuff and go downstairs.

Great idea - a plug-in with different car/truck modeling. With a "from the backseat while humping" model. "Windows Up/Down %" or "Convertible Top Up/Down %" combined with a "MPH" setting for true rolling-in-my-5.0-with-the-rag-top-down-so-my-hair-can-blow modeling.

Maybe even different stereos. "Bose Symphonic in Audi Wagon w/Sub" or "'89 IROC-Z with TSX-7's on the Back Dash".

The Liquid Real-World Testbed or something?

Brilliant idea, really.

MT

[Mr. Dipity]

I'm going to make some convolutions signatures of my car stereo sometime, so I don't have to burn stuff and go downstairs.

Great idea - a plug-in with different car/truck modeling. With a "from the backseat while humping" model. "Windows Up/Down %" or "Convertible Top Up/Down %" combined with a "MPH" setting for true rolling-in-my-5.0-with-the-rag-top-down-so-my-hair-can-blow modeling.

Maybe even different stereos. "Bose Symphonic in Audi Wagon w/Sub" or "'89 IROC-Z with TSX-7's on the Back Dash".

The Liquid Real-World Testbed or something?

Brilliant idea, really.

MT

It's been done. Really badly, however. A rather appalling preset eq job. Really lame.

[KennyLusk]

Aren't all preset EQ's pretty lame?

[Slider]

The car is the true real world test for me.

I'm going to make some convolutions signatures of my car stereo sometime, so I don't have to burn stuff and go downstairs.

I know a mastering guy who is thinking about putting an actual full size car (with a bumping "pimp my ride" style system) in his studio for the rap guys to check their masters on.
I think he was being serious... one can never be sure.

[Professor]

Monitors are indeed supposed to be flat, but they can't be expected to reproduce sound all the way down to 20Hz. Most near-field and bookshelf speakers will start dropping off at 50-65Hz depending on the size of the woofer and the design of the speaker. And even with an 8" woofer, if it's in a 2-way box, the woofer needs to cover mid-range duty as well. And while I've not tried to use those particular Tannoys for mixing, I know that Tannoys are generally reliable, and I like my System 800 monitors that live on my bedroom system, though I also know what to expect from them.

Yes, it's kind of true that near-fields are meant to be close enough that the room is not as much of a factor in your listening. But at that proximity you also won't pick up on what the bass is doing. Near-fields are really meant for the detail work of edits and EQ shaping and getting the mix close to completion, but then pro studios will put the mix up on the main speakers that can actually reproduce the full frequency range on a 3- or 4-way system and are really able to see what is going on. And of course, it's obvious that your room is effecting your sound because the bass sounds different when you back away - usually it is pretty substantial when you go stand against the back wall.

And while larger speakers and room treatments would be a good long-range goal, there are also a couple of tricks you can do to help minimize the bass in your mix just as a mental/mathematical exercise. That is to stop adding low end from instruments that don't have any to offer.
- The lead vocals aren't doing anything but P-pops below 100Hz, so roll them off.
- Neither are the backing vocals, so roll them off too, maybe even higher, around 120 or 150.
- As mentioned above, get the guitar out below about 100. You might even roll off a lead guitar around 200Hz but let a rhythm extend down to 150Hz.
- Toms, snare drum, and anything else you might have recorded that isn't meant to deliver bass can be rolled off.
- Even the kick drum and electric bass can often benefit from a low roll off down around 35, 40, or 45Hz. You'll find that this will really tighten the sound.
Having said that, it's also important to realize what a roll-off is doing. It's not cutting out all frequencies below a particular point, it is simply gradually reducing them as it moves down the spectrum. Take a fairly standard 12dB per octave roll, and when it's set at 100, you're only 12dB down at 50Hz, and 24dB down at 25Hz. Set it to 40Hz on the kick and you're only down 12dB at 20Hz which is where you and I stop hearing anyway, and probably below where most home stereos are able to reproduce sounds anyway! And that's different than a 'shelf' EQ that aims to bring everything below a particular point down an equal amount.

As you start to become more aware of the bass you don't need, you'll be more careful about it in tracking as well, and will avoid the noise of wind, foot-falls, and just low-end mud that messes up your mixes. But until then, don't be afraid to cut the lows, there's no shame there. When only the bass and kick and other low rhythm tracks are occupying the bottom of your sound, and when they aren't burdening the amp and speakers with lots of material below 25Hz that is just turning into heat at the speaker anyway, you'll be amazed at how tight and focused your mix can become.
I know you can't hear the bass well off the little monitors and that your natrual instinct is to turn up the bass on everything, but that's why I said this almost more of a mental exercise. Solo a channel, switch on a low roll-off, and turn up the frequency to see just how much can go away before it really even touches the fundamental frequencies of that particular track.

-Jeremy

[Zeppelin4Life]

A montoring enviornment doesnt need to be perfect. but is should definetly be a place your farmilar with when it comes to sound. The easiest to work with is a flat response. but this is unrealistic to most home studios. just something to keep in mind.
My favorite monitors are

HR824s,
NS-10s,
and all the Genelecs..although I cant afford them..ever.. and ive only heard them once

[spankenstein]

I'm using near fields (Alesis Monitor One mkII) and when I was in the mix position everythign sounded good. I'd pull up a "pro" mix and my mixes would sound just as good. I'd step back and the low end would be overwhelming. The pro mix would still sound good. I first added some distance between the mix position and the monitors, that helped some but it was still un predictable in the lowend. I put up these makeshift bass traps (against the makeshift walls that should be built in the next couple months) and it was like a completely different room in regard to the low end. In the mix position the low end was horribly accentuated... just like outside. I did a couple quick mixes and they instantly translated WAY better than anything else I've done.

[bmsander]

I second the Mackie H824s.

Excellent monitors and you can adjust the top and low end w/ switches on the back.


brett