Hi-quality problem regarding snare

[alanfc]

hi- I have the luxury of a top and bottom snare mic on my band's mixes I'm working on (for our homemade CD). This is my "hi-quality" problem....

I understand the benefits of it in terms of livlieness and snap, but the bottom mic track is starting to really bug me.

While mixing the kit, with each top-bot levelled out to my tastes I try:
1-bottom mic phase invert, top no invert=snappy but thin,unreal, no touch
2-top mic phase invert, bottom no invert= deeper but sort of swishy, no touch
3-top & bottom no inversions= deep and boomy, totally useless

4- top mic only, mute the bottom= this has promise !

the question is, how many of you just use the Top snare mic?.

I had originally thought I'd =never= go this way because I don't get the snare-like "tsst" from the bottom mic which I used to find desirable. Now I hate it. The problem was originally that the top mic was all deep "toonk" and I never fully got into tweaking it. But now I'm liking it better since it seems to have alot more character and reflect the feel of our drummer better.
Solution- EQ out the boomy, and tweak up the higher end of the top snare mic track and use it alone, with =no= bottom mic track. I am getting a little high end on it naturally and it sounds more like when we play. There is a little bit of snare-y sound in there.

I'm going for the "band is in the room with you" sound that Joel Hamilton mentioned in one of my earlier questions. Actually this is the reason I'm going back to all these mixes and doing them in Mono first, and looking for lively pure natural human stuff if you know what I mean. I'm not going to go EQ-crazy everywhere but on this track its worth it.

What about phase when I bring in the overheads?
My guess is I'll tweak the overheads to accomodate the top snare mic, not the other way around. I'm not there yet.

So if you made it down this far in my post-
How many of you just use the Top snare mic?.

thanks alot

[The2and4]

Be glad that you still have the option. When my band was being recorded a while back, the engineer committed to putting both mics on one track. I wasn't pleased with the results. Now that I'm doing some recording myself, I always try to leave the option open.

Someday I hope to be at the level where I can make those types of decisions without regretting it later, but for now I need the safety net.

Up until about a year ago, I only used a top mic out of necessity. Now that I have a few more inputs to play with, I've added a snare/beater mic. It doesn't always get used in the mix.

If it sounds better/sounds the way you want it to and fits in the mix, I say, use only the top mic.

[Moon Unit]

If it's not doing it for ya, then it's not doing it for ya. Hit the mute button and move on to bigger and better things.

>MUTE<

Done. Now that was easy, wasn't it?

[soundguy]

alan, you are developing a style of what you like, dont ask permission to do so, just do it, its the whole point which lots of people miss. Be glad you found something that you read on the internet you were supposed to do but found you thought really sucked. You'll find lots of other things which people do which you'll think sucks too, dont be afraid to listen to your recordings and turn the knob until it sounds really cool, this is what people had to do before the internet. To date, I dont think I have EVER used overheads on a drum kit, everytime I tried it I thought it sucked so I thought of something better. Its up to you to think of something better to make your recordings cool, forget what everyone else does, it only matters what you do, especially not what glynn johns does.

As for the phase from your overheads, it depends on where you put your mics, you'll have to listen and see.

dave

[vatoben]

the bottom mic can give a descent hassle. i've been using a Y-cable with one side out of phase and using a beta 57 on top and a regular 57 on the bottom. the beta seems to have a little more output so the sound balances out better for me. i also like to compress my overheads with a fast attack and that softens the snare coming through them. when i bring up the snare mics (which go to one channel by the way) it brings clarity to the snare while the overheads supply the poomf. this has been working very well for me. i'm considering other mic combos into the single channel thing. maybe a 421 on top and a 57 on bottom. who knows. i'd say if you're not into the sound than come back to it at another time when you thought of a way to make it usable.

[bdp]

Yeah man, totally.... if you think it sucks then it sucks.

I actually prefer a mic on the top head and one on the shell ,rather than one on top and one on bottom. This works better for me, but I've had lot's of people try and convince me to top and bottom mike the snare but so far I'm just not a convert.

Personally, I appreciate your honesty in saying something just doesn't work for you at this stage, and you have my support to continue to disregard whatever the hell you want when it comes to your recordings.

Cheers,

bdp

[Stephen]

I mic both top and bottom but don't always use the bottom (it depends on how much of the actual snares I am getting from the top mic.) If it sounds good with the top mic alone then run with it.
Pax, Steve

[twitchmonitor]

I never found much use for a bottom mic and have NEVER kept one in a song. I may revisit this in the future, but for now I'm happy to get the snare in the top mic and overheads.

[joel hamilton]

Just when I think I "never" do something, I wind up using it because it is appropriate to the present situation at hand. Just when I think I have figured out "my sound" I do a record that doesnt sound anything like I have ever done before... All because when you clear your mind of preconceived notions, the SONG tells you what it needs to be. (WARNING: DEEP SPIRITUAL CONTENT AHEAD THAT MAY BUM YOU OUT IF YOU LIKE FOOTBALL TOO MUCH)...

When you mix without EGO, you let go of YOUR idea of what something should be, and you make it perfect as what it IS. I have really found that to be one of the only common threads in working at the art of recording things. If you can embrace what is there, you are making "perfect" moves every time you choose a comp, or EQ, or whatever it is the song leads you to.

Try to be a blank slate going into a mix. Let the moment dictate your every move, as a song seems to be a contiguous collection of moments when mixing. How does this moment affect that one.... How can I make this moment bigger...
I would suggest trying to listen. Really listen to the way these moments interact. Listen to the snare as a moment in and of itself, rather than as a "part that needs to fit" or a "sound to be messed with." Listen to the kick as its own moment. How do those moments relate to each other?

All these individual moments start to add up to a bigger moment called "the chorus" or the "verse."

Keep getting micro and then macro and then pull out all the way and look at the whole. This is just how my brain works while mixing, and even putting it into words sounds a touch on the "wizard" side, but I really feel these concepts are valid.

Also,
I like to wear chain mail while mixing, and a merlin hat...

I hope that esoteria inspires someone. It relly works for me though, all kidding aside.....
it is amazing how a simple semantic shift in your thinking can open up a series of doors or solutions you never saw before, even if they were right there the whole time!

[Slider]

I almost always set one up.
Sometimes you don't need it, but I usually like it.
I actually like a U87 kick beater mic that doubles as a under snare mic even better than a SDC right underneath.
I forced David Bianco to set this up once against his will.
Years later he talked in Mix magazine about how cool it was.

Check this out, he still uses it.

http://mixonline.com/recording/intervie ... _big_bang/

[Rivers]

That sounds like a cool placement...

How close to the beater head is the Mic?

I've never had much use for a under snare mic but this sounds fun.

[Slider]

I use it about 4 inches off the kick rim.
It's basically a very low bottom snare mic that's pointed at the kick drum.
You can use any mic for this, Ive had good results with a 441 too.
When you squash it a bit it sounds like the Sgt Pepper (reprise) drum sound.
Which was what I was going for when I discovered it.