live remote mix help

general questions, comments and ideas about recording, audio, music, etc.
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alschnier
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live remote mix help

Post by alschnier » Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:54 am

wondered if anybody had any experience w. the following:

we are revising our live stereo recording scenario. (we also multitrack from the monitor console - midas H3K > Tascam MX2424). we would like to run a matrix mix of stereo soundboard along w. stereo mics from front of house position. all 4 signals run thru API preamp & is recorded both to DAT & hard drive via tascam MX2424.

the issue is this - we need to delay the soundboard mix to align signal w. mics. since that sounboard feed is approx. 75% of the mix, I am concerned about running it thru a lame digital delay. we've considered an AMS. any thoughts on models? I know companies like Klark Teknik make delays specifically for live sound time delay applications, but again, we're concerned w. the integrity of the signal.

we used to do a matrix mix using mics on stage (414s facing audience), but the end result still lacks the overall balance & feel of a good front of house mix (ie. dry vocals, excessive kick or hi hat, etc.).

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Piotr
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Re: live remote mix help

Post by Piotr » Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:22 am

Why not record the board mix, and the matrix and stereo signals? Does your board have direct outputs? Then you could have more dry signal overall.
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Piotr

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alschnier
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Re: live remote mix help

Post by alschnier » Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:31 am

we are. the idea was to have all 4 channels (2 board, 2 mics) mixed down to a stereo signal on the fly. the goal is to have a good source for official "bootleg" recordings w/o having to go in & mix down the road. that is why we are trying to delay the board mix to align w. the mics. the balance is about 75/25 board/mics.

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Re: live remote mix help

Post by kayagum » Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:17 am

Does the MX2424 have an offset or track slip function? I know that my HD24 can slip tracks by 170 milliseconds. If you measure it beforehand, you should be able to just slide your tracks once after finishing the track recording.

You can align the outs with an outboard delay for monitoring, so you can hear the alignment on the fly without it compromising the input chain, if it's that important to you.
Last edited by kayagum on Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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audioez
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Re: live remote mix help

Post by audioez » Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:19 am

for your consideration:

rent a three way mic splitter; hire a music mixer who can get a great sound on the fly and can roll with any situation. The splitter will feed FOH(ISO), MONITORS(direct), and MUSIC MIX(ISO). That way you get what you want which is a good live recording.

Over the past year I have mixed over 50 musical acts/guests for broadcast TV. I'd say most of them get a quick sound check for monitors, which I also set up and dial in. Almost everytime I'm running back to my music mix position to quickly throw something together, wheather it's live to AIR or a POST TAPE. The mix for broadcast is performed on a 16x4x2 channel board with 4 channels of compressors and one reverb. It's not rocket science, you just have to be quick and musical.

Oh, and having a nice colletion of outboard preamps doesn't hurt either.

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Re: live remote mix help

Post by kayagum » Tue Feb 15, 2005 2:53 pm

If you want to truly be a geek about it, you can figure 13.5" or 1.125' per millisecond at 20 degrees celsius for alignment.

Or, just use the ears :)

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Re: live remote mix help

Post by Professor » Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:06 pm

Hate to break it to you, but you are not going to be able to delay the FOH stereo pair to align with the stage mics.
The FOH pair is delayed relative to the stage mics. You need to go the other way.
The sound hits the stage mics and starts moving at the speed of light, but still has to move at the speed of sound on the way to the FOH pair, and therefore arrives later.

So delaying the tracks live just isn't going to work unless you want to place a delay on every sing channel coming off the stage.
If you are looking at covering this in mixdown, then slippling the FOH pair earlier to align with the other tracks would work out fine. But since you mentioned that you wanted more of a mix on the fly, then I think you'll be living with the built in delay.
But then, that isn't all that bad. Your direct sound is 75%, and your stereo pair will be at 25% and will have a natural delay. Seems to me this would add just the right amount of ambience and act more as a 'natural reverb' track. I would suggest that you keep that FOH pair within about 50' of the stage, preferably closer at about 30-40' so that the delay is heard as more of a reverb and thickening of the sound, and not as an echo or second attack. Try to keep the delay on that pair under 50ms.

-Jeremy

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Re: live remote mix help

Post by fremitus » Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:44 pm

this isn't much of an answer, but i think that getting it down to four tracks is entirely acceptable, aligning them later is a very simple step and committing them to stereo from there may be another step, but the precision of the act can help to ensure the quality you are trying to maintain. anyways. have a good run... next stop. cleveland.

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